Considering making my entire DT database simply indexed in native filesystem. Thoughts?

And who moved it to the Finder trash?

I did of course

Yes intentionally - but I think it is a reasonable demonstration of what could happen (and has happened to me) inadvertently for any number of reasons

No it’s not. If you delete a file then you can’t expect to use it afterwards. Doesn’t make sense at all.

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The point is in the finder if you see a list of 100 files, it means the files are all there. If suddenly the list has only 50 but you expect 100, then you know you just did something wrong and can probably fix it right away.

But In a DT3 indexed group, you might see that reassuring list of 100 files day after day but 6 months from now when you need them and try to select them, you might realize that 50 of them have been “missing” for quite some time.

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No the point is files do not move themselves to trash. If you accidentally delete files in Finder then you’ll see it there. Whether they are indexed or not doesn’t make a difference - you have to take care when deleting. It’s that simple.

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OK I guess it comes down to I make mistakes sometimes and I find a non-indexed system to be more tolerant of my mistakes.

Others may not make those mistakes and like the benefits of Indexing. That’s fine too.

I will leave it at that. Thanks for the discussion.

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I think rkaplan makes a perfectly valid point.

It’s not about “files don’t move themselves to the trash” - it is simply a fact that under some conditions a file can still remain displayed in DEVONthink even though it is in the trash, and that can catch some people out.

There are benefits to either way of working, and no-one is suggesting one is right or wrong.

But for some users internal is inherently a safer option than indexing.

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As we always have said, indexing should be carefully considered, especially with the tighter Finder integration. There can be benefits to both approaches but indexing requires more care.

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Hi,
I’ve been using DT3 for a couple of months (still lots of things to learn). I work like that, indexing documents that live on Dropbox. Also sync to Dropbox from DTtGo.
My golden rule is NOT to TOUCH the original documents. All the interaction with the ‘raw’ documents (mainly on a PDF format), is done via DTtGo. Although, sometimes, I did open, read and highlight a PDF on Acrobat, for instance, and saved it afterwards. DT3 can read the changes successfully.

So far so good. Maybe this goes against all the DT3 rules… if so I’d appreciate tome feedback.

Cheers,
Al

Welcome @alferid
What you’re doing sounds okay and I’m glad you’re being thoughtful about it. :slight_smile:

I feel compelled to chime in on this thread adding a different experience perspective. I have used DTP for number of years and made the change to v3 shortly after its release. The change of how indexed files are handled in v3 was challenging for me to become clear on understand how to use vs how I had been using index files in previous versions.

To be fair, I expected it to behave in a similar fashion as it did in the previous version end it took me a while (longer than it should have) to read the documentation BLUEFROG referenced. To me the documentation explains how indexed files are handled, but not in a very clear manner that I grasped on a first read.

Most of the scenarios discussed here are about modifying files via Finder and how / when those modifications are shown in DTP and frankly those don’t bother me as I take full responsibility for knowing what I do to files in the Finder.

Whenever I use it, indexing is to a DB with imported files. The struggles I have using indexed files are different and I would love corrections or ideas for how to handle them:

  1. understanding, with consistency, the effect that deleting indexed instances within DTP has of the actual files located outside of DTP. It seems that I must know or remember the history / provenance of the indexed instance as to if it was a folder, subfolder, or individual file in the finder and whether it is a group, subgroup, or file instance within DTP.

  2. Also if I index folders and files from a local drive and then organize/move the indexed instances within DTP to other groups or sub groups(not indexed), it is unclear whether or not deleting those indexed instances will delete the original file in the local drive.

  3. Knowing how to remove an indexed group, subgroup, or file instance from DTP without the folder, subfolder, or individual file being deleted from the finder. For example, if I have a folder with sub folders and files on my local drive and index the folder into DTP as part of my workflow, and later on want to remove it from DTP but maintain the folders and files on the local drive, I do not know how to do that without the files are deleted from the local drive. Just experienced an entire folder being deleted from the drive when deleting the indexed instance in DTP because the dialogue box did was not the one stating they would be deleted from the local drive in the finder.

I tried testing the various scenarios of the indexing, moving, and then deleting indexed instances and could not see the consistent pattern for how the files are handled on the local drive. Perhaps I just have been too casual about the documentation or too dense to understand, but for me the result is trepidation about indexing files in v3 solely because I do not know when the app will delete the files from the local drive.

I assume there is some technical reason that prevents having a dialogue pop up whenever action on an indexed file will result in deleting the file from the local drive… For me the tighter finder integration is nice and welcome, but the lack of consistent notification of file deletion from the local drive means that I need to be concerned with how the app thinks vs what I want to accomplish.

Can a dialogue box pop up whenever DTP will delete the external file stating that it will?

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It is a simple thing.

If you want the ability to delete indexed items in DEVONthink and retain them in the Finder, index them individually. Individually indexed files and folders will prompt you about deleting indexed items when you’re emptying the Trash in DEVONthink (and yes, this is stated in the documentation).

Don’t index your entire Documents folder. Index a subfolder of the Documents folder. Need another folder indexed? Index that one too. Don’t need all the files in a folder indexed, index the file you need.

This approach also avoids filling a database with extraneous items.

BLUEFROG - Thanks for the quick reply. Your answer was clear but the behavior I experience is not what quite as you described.

Individually indexed files and folders will prompt you about deleting indexed items when you’re emptying the Trash in DEVONthink

sorry - but the behavior I experience does not seem to be as simple as you stated.
As best I can tell:

Deleting at indexed item when it is index to be located within an existing indexed Group deletes the finder file without notice

Getting notice when an item is indexed to not be located within an indexed group depends on if the indexed item is a file or folder

Getting notice when an item is indexed and then moved within DTP to either an indexed or non indexed group varies and has not been consistent

My use case is that I want to index a folder in a cloud type drive (Synology or iCloud) so the folder is easily accessible from the desktop for a small set of files for current projects. I will move some of those indexed instances within the DTP DB for organizational purposes. My experience is that the notice of deletion behavior differs or requires me to remember the folder/ file structure when originally indexed.

Is there an operational principle I am missing as to how I should use indexed files if I want to move the instances around within DTP after indexing?

Deleting at indexed item when it is index to be located within an existing indexed Group deletes the finder file without notice

Have you disabled alerts?
Press Preferences > General > Alerts: Reset.

Getting notice when an item is indexed to not be located within an indexed group depends on if the indexed item is a file or folder

Getting notice when an item is indexed and then moved within DTP to either an indexed or non indexed group varies and has not been consistent

I’m not sure what you’re referring to here. You don’t receive notices when moving indexed items around in a database.

My experience is that the notice of deletion behavior differs or requires me to remember the folder/ file structure when originally indexed.

You are free to move indexed items around in a database,however you should recall if the items involved are indexed. There is also a small property icon that looks like the Finder icon to the right of an item’s name in the item list.

Point by point:

No, I have not disabled alerts. I have also reset them in the last few weeks for troubleshooting.

I am referring to the 2 pop up window notices when emptying trash. One just confirms emptying trash and the other provides choice about deleting the file from the local drive. My comment was that the window that the confirmation window displayed differs depending upon where the original folder is indexed into in DTP and differed again if the indexed item is moved with DTP.

Thanks but that is not the point I am making and asking about. Yes, I know I can move indexed items around and frequency do. And Yes I am familiar with and use the property icon. My comment is that the behavior of the deletion notices when emptying the trash seems to differ and change from the notice that is presented if I do not move the indexed instance around.

Also back to my original post:
Once a folder is indexed into DTP, how does one remove the index instance in DTP without deleting the files in the local disk? The only way I found is to
move the folder in the finder to a different place breaking the DTP link and then clean up the DTP entry, or
move the files into DTP and then drag out of DTP

Is my use case the problem?
My points and questions are that the deletion behavior is not as simple as stated earlier and I am trying to figure out how to use indexing for my use case without fear of unnoticed/ unintentional deletions of files on the local disk