DEVONtechnologies sold!

I agree with all these posts. Every single one. It’s a toughie.

Here’s the sum of my conclusions so far:

  1. We’ve all got to know the people at DT quite well (in a cyber-space kinda way) over the last few years - they’re nice guys, talented, hard-working, extraordinarily helpful, and deserve every success. It seems to me that all the posts on this thread are, if you read between the lines, from people who like and admire Eric and Christian and the others and wish them well. Also, as several posters have pointed out, it’s their company - they built it from scratch with their own lily-white hands - they can do what they like with it. They didn’t even have to tell us they’d sold (but they did - and they’re smart guys, they knew what the reaction would be). So, way to go.

  2. Now, a lot of posts here are - like everything these days - about Iraq. There’s a strong anti-US (especially anti US-military) sentiment in Europe and elsewhere at the moment, and, less often commented on, a strong anti-Europe sentiment in the States. This is a deep, deep rift - a generation-long one, perhaps - and, certainly among people I know, and including myself, there’s no inclination to restore cordiality for the time being. Both sides will continue to bear their satisfying grudge, and like millions of other people on both sides, I don’t necessarily regard that as a bad thing. (For the record, I’m extremely proud to call myself Old Europe). Well, it seems to me that those who are pro-US (for want of a better term) regard the whole Iraq thing as irrelevant to the DT merger, and that they’re wrong to think so, and that them thinking so is precisely part of the problem; while those who are anti-US (for want of a better term) regard it as a take-over, not a merger, and worry about the Pentagon picture and everything, and yes, it’s hand-wringing, but some of us regard that as better than actively collaborating with things we strongly disapprove of. Here’s how that affects DT specifically:

  3. “You’re either with us or against us,” Mr Bush once famously said; and it is possible that, for once in his life, he was saying something both coherent and true. There is a sense among some of DT’s customers - including myself - that DT used to be “our” kind of company, and is no longer. It was centred around two guys running out of (for all anyone knew) a garage somewhere in a small town in post-reunification Germany - it’s the Apple/ Google myth. They ran ethical campaigns, careless of the effect it would have on sales. Their bulletin boards are bilingual - Old Europeans are proud of the plurality of their languages - and had their head office in London, EU, not London, UK. In short, quite besides them having a great product, they had the kind of image that many people (again, including myself) would describe as “cool”. And those people feel… betrayed…

  4. As for the future - I think probably the product is OK for a while. Unlike one of the posters to this thread, I am convinced by Eric’s plaintive “It’s still us”; the oldest line in the book, maybe, but the first time DT have used it, and everyone is entitled to resort to emotional blackmail once and be trusted for it (Mr Blair take note). Of course you should have exit strategies - Christian himself said so somewhere - because your data is important and you don’t know what will happen. But I think the product itself will be safe for a couple of years at least, and usable for many more after that. And now that DT is getting bigger, other companies’ products might start importing DT databases…

  5. Personally - I still don’t know. To be frank, AgentScience (I nearly wrote AgentSmith there - too much the Matrix!) is the kind of company I’d run a mile from, no matter how perfect their product was for me. But I’m used to DT, and know its quirks, and use it every day, and I don’t think - realistically - I’m going to abandon that. Indeed, I’ll probably buy Pro. I mean, the merger is a done deal; there’s no way DT are going to change their minds, even if they could, and a few people saying they’re going to move to another app is going to hurt no one but those few people. Besides, things change - “fire rests by changing”, Heraclitus said. But weighing everything up, all the advantages and dis-, I wish it hadn’t happened. Kinda put a real damper on my week.

Thanks for reading.

Robert Loughrey
London
EU

This thread is morphing into a political debate. Politics is unfortunately a divisive issue and this forum is not I feel the right place to debate such issues. Why don’t we all just agree that we like DT and it’s products and leave it at that. If down the road there are tangible negative effects then we should by all means discuss them. For me at least this will be my last word on the issue.

[quote=“psmyth”]

This is a forum: a space in which things are debated. It is not a space in which you, or anyone except the moderators, may determine what is legitimate discourse. If you don’t approve of the very act of expressing thoughts or opinions on a given topic, it is for you to remain, not for you tell me (or any of us) to be, silent. Nor indeed is it for you to tick me off like an old-fashioned schoolmistress.

Indeed you do presume, and correctly. (Though not because Microsoft are suppliers to the military but because their products are bad.)

Not if I can help it, no. Though given the hegemony of the military over much scientific and technological funding in the West in general and the USA in particular, it is hard. After all, who funded the internet initially? (But who now runs it?)

Your point is entirely valid and I agree with it.

You may have a point there, too, but it is too clever for me. Do you mean that business decisions are excluded from ethical interrogation? Or that it’s illegitimate for customers to question business decisions except from the point of view of purest self-interest?

Do you mean: < Business. Speak. Punter. Accept. In. Silence.> ?

That doesn’t hold water. Three simple examples applying your reasoning: (1) Nobody can criticise MacDonalds because we are not privy to their reasons for conducting their business as they do. (2) Nobody can criticise Tony Blair because we do not have access to all the “facts”. (3) Nobody AT ALL can do science until at least one person knows everything, and then only that one person is allowed to do it.

Good point & perhaps I should have considered it before this little surprise.

tsk tsk

[worry that]

[quote I wonder would any of those people mind picking a few winners for me in the next Darby. Being able to predict the future must come in very handy.[/quote]
Speculate about, not predict. And, yes, it does.

Low-grade sarcasm is no substitute for reason. And there are reasons for choosing the company one keeps beyond pure self-interest. This, I know, goes contrary to the harshest principles of the US business model, but I think a lot of people have legitimate concerns about that model which cannot necessarily be articulated within the very limited discourse of that model. Your sneering does not invalidate those concerns.

Why? You seem to take this personally. No wonder you are getting so cross. But it’s not an ad hominem argument. I don’t even know who you are; why would I address you personally?

The words “feel” and “albeit irrationally” are a clue there.

Which is precisely why the association with AgentScience is worrying. If you have looked into AgentScience at all, you may find yourself considering that it may have nothing but the best regard and respect for… itself.

For something to be denounced as disingenuous requires that it masqueraded as ingenuous in the first place.

Aha. The ultimate modernist sin: Relativism Failure.

Let me explain more clearly. I like DEVONthink. I like the company and its ethos. I do not like I do not like what I know of AgentScience and its ethos. I am therefore troubled by their new association. Could you explain to me what is wrong/inadmissible/disingenuous with (a) this set of propositions and (b) using this forum as the place to air those concerns?

I am an American, a native American actually, and I too have worked for the national labs on environmental issues and sat on their committees, still do on one. They are primarily good people trying to do good work. I have also worked for DOD on programs such as SERDP and spent many years in a USEPA research laboratory. I too voted for George W. Bush. The first time. But I learned from my mistake and am in 100% agreement with the majority of Europeans (hell the entire world) and 50% of the US about this man. He is the epitome of a bad leader and has nearly bankrupted this once great country, eliminated many of our freedoms, is attempting to create a theocracy, and began a war that has killed tens of thousands using lies and false pretenses that he knew at the time were lies and false pretenses. It is my humble opinion that he, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfeld (at the very least) should be arrested, taken to the Hague and tried as war criminals and for crimes against humanity.

But yes, I do like DEVONthink too and I hope that the guys stay active developing it for us.

ChemBob

Robert, psmyth, abrawang, …

Thank you for this dicussion. For us, it’s very important to see that we’re not only a company that just sells some good to “someone”, but that we’ve created a real, lively and caring community. This fits our “ethos” (btw a word we rarely use in Germany). And it feels good to know that there are so many people here who like us even if they don’t know us personally.

We, too, share a lot of the view posted here. We are in great concern about how the Bush adminstration acts, about the wars the US military leads and will lead in the future, and the backside of the globalization. As Robert pointed out totally right, we’re global villagers here. We feel as Europeans and and believe in European values, but we also feel connected with all other people on this planet. It’s one world and DEVONtechnologies is a small, German garage-based global company (in fact it’s a nice, light, big basement :wink:). Christian and me have never believed that borders do any good. Mentally, we deny their existence.

Maybe some of you have missed it: AgentScience has not merged with us. We’re still two separate companies doing separate things. They’re in Coeur d’Alene, we’re in those basements near Stuttgart, Germany, and Budweis, Czech Republic, EU (and we will not move to the US). The registered office may have moved from London to Idaho, but this does not change our ethos. We do not intend to let go of running ethical campains, supporting flood victims or caring about Erdenechimeg, our foster child. Not at all, and the folks at AgentScience know that.

What this alliance does is provide DEVONtechnologies with a solid back end – money – that hopefully enables us to do what we’ve already done in the past three years with more confidence and more power. Christian lives with his girlfriend, I am happily married and have three children. All these people have to live from what we earn with the company, and AgentScience gives us both some security and the financial foundation to continue our work without worrying about how to pay the food for our families.

We’re well aware of what business AgentScience is in and we had long discussions about if we should make these agreements or not. But besides whatever anyone thinks about their clients, they’re fine people and we strongly believe that they will have no negative effects on both our Mac software business and our ethos.

Regarding the “exit strategy”: We’ve always said that it’s good to know that you can migrate your data at any time to another applications. There are so many things that can happen, from DEVONtechnologies going bancrupt, Christian being killed in a subway accident or Apple selling Mac OS X to Microsoft. This is, contrary to our competitors, why DEVONthink always had excellent and seamless export mechanims. We have many support enquiries from people who want to bring their data over from InfoSelect, Circus Ponies NoteBook or AOL (!) and who have problems of getting their valuable data out of these databases. We don’t think it’s necessary to chain people to the database by “forgetting” the export function. We belive it’s better to give good support and spend energy on developing good applications.

Best,

Eric.

thanks for the responses, Eric.

could you address the issue of the DT developers’ time being diverted from purely Mac development to some measure of it being directed towards developing the APIs for AgentScience? What impact do you see this having on your planned release schedule?

I remember you saying that DT Pro would be available right before or after the SF Macworld. Several weeks have gone by with no word on this, just curious how this new business arrangement impacts your guys’ ability to keep pushing forward on Mac stuff.

I have nothing to say about the business decision or either company one way or another. But, if I may say so, should you, Eric or Christian, have a chance to visit northern Idaho I would encourage you to check it out. I grew up in southern Idaho on the Snake River and had a few opportunities to drive the 10 hours north. It is a wild and beautiful place to explore. One of my 10-year goals is to bike from southern Arizona, through Utah, Idaho, and finally ending on the Going to the Sun Highway in National Glacier Park on the Montana/Canadian border.

Mark

So far it had an impact as all these agreements had to be made, documents read, discussions lead etc. Regarding resources, the agreements have not delayed the release of DT Pro at all. They’re already using existing interfaces, so it’s just a few e-mails per week about technical issues here and there.

Best,

Eric.

We surely will! The first board meeting will take place in Prague, EU, the next one in Coeur d’Alene. As said, we see ourselves as global citizens and try to live this lifestyle.

Best,

Eric.

good news Eric, thanks.

any update on estimated release date for DT Pro?

i’ve never been to Couer d’Alene but I hear it is drop dead beautiful. Would love to visit sometime.

“Ethische Weltanschauung” then. But you know what it means. And we admire yours.

And, yes, we all have to feed our families. And, yes, again, any enterprise can stop for any number of reasons. My remarks were not a howl of petulance but more as I would say to a friend “Are you sure you’re making the right decision in hanging out with those people?”

To repeat: we like DEVONtech and the products and we wish you well. The concerns about the continued support for the products were not my primary, but contingent, concern.

Just one thing. If this venture produces the cash, BUY YOURSELVES A COUPLE OF AERON CHAIRS. Best intellectual tool on the planet – second, of course, to DT.

After all the updates of DEVONthink Personal, DEVONnote and DEVONagent, DEVONthink Pro public beta is next. Okay, next week we’ll release DEVONnote 1.6.2 (which is already done as it’s just an offspring to DEVONthink) and some freeware (which is also already done). Then, we’ll fully concentrate on the Pro public beta. But, as we’ve already missed more than one deadline (and quite a few people complained about this with good reason), I don’t want to publish a concrete date to not frustrate you if we miss it again.

But, promised, we’re working on it with full speed.

Best,

Eric.

Eric,

Thank you for the further information – especially the personal details. I don’t know Bietigheim-Bissingen, but I refuse to believe that anything bad could come from Ceske Budejovice, or from Plzen, for that matter :slight_smile:

I have to confess that my earlier remark about an ‘exit strategy’ was made in ignorance (as a new user) of DT’s export facility. As I explored it, I realized that DT is a model of transparency. Good to know.

I hope you succeed in maintaining control of the technology and your current support for the Mac platform. But I’m not one of those who think that this focus has to be exclusive. I’m not sure how far any developer can go serving just one platform.

Although I love the seamlessness of Cocoa, I also like and depend on a very similar (in some ways) product iView Pro to manage a database of non-text assets. iView started life as a Mac-only product built ‘in a garage’ in the UK but is now cross-platform and beautifully presented (using C++ and the Carbon library, I’m guessing).

Best wishes …

Will the new “clip to folder/name clip” feature mentioned in another thread be part of this release of DEVONnote? or is it reserved for DEVONthink? PLEASE put it in DEVONnote! That’s where I want to keep my short clips. I’d prefer to reserve DEVONthink for my growing collection of PDF papers and other longer academic documents. Having both in the same database is a nuisance - I need to do very different things with each collection.