Gathering, editing and exporting notes?

Thanks, Alexandria. As much as I admire Mellel’s wonderful outlining function, I think I can get the same effect via Devon. For me, the big conceptual leap was realizing that a “note” in Devon can be anything – a “section” as in CopyWrite, a “file,” a “chapter” – whatever you want to call it. We have this visual metaphor of each note as a piece of paper inside a folder, but it’s really just a bit of info, and Devon is powerful enough to let you organize or conceptualize it in different ways – as notecards in the info gathering phase, as sections or outline points in the organizing phase, and as docs in the formatting phase. So, it’s a notetaking program today, an outlining program tomorrow, even a basic writing program next month. Maybe specialized apps like Notebook make each phase a bit easier, but I’m finding that for my purposes, Devon can handle almost everything, and I like dealing with only one app.

That’s what makes Devon so useful to me – its flexibility. I write my articles and columns in Devon and export to Word (actually TextEdit saved in Word format) only because that’s what the production folks are used to; Devon’s formatting is sufficient for those simple articles that require no footnoting and little formatting. I’ve also been happily surprised to find Devon useful for organizing and drafting a historically based theater project that also has a whole bunch of historical info that needs assimilating.

In a perfect world, for simplicity’s sake, I’d ONLY use Devon, or maybe Devon and TextEdit, and that’s actually what I do already for 90% of my work. I do agree with one of the posters here that we don’t want to overload or bloat Devon with too many WP features.

When I get back on the book in a couple weeks, I’ll try to keep drafting in Devon, but am considering moving the final writing to mellel instead of Word if my coauthor agrees; Word’s reviewing function is, I must admit, useful in collaborative projects.

But I’ll check Mellel’s forum again as you suggest. Its footnote limitations aren’t a big deal to me; at this point, we’re thinking that the footnotes will be at the end of the whole book, not each chapter, but that could change depending on what the publisher wants. If I didn’t already have Word, I’d certainly buy Mellel, as it seems to offer much more than other WPs (or office suites like appleworks and neoOffice) and to be easier to use. I do wish it’d save files in rtf format, but I see from the forum that the developers have considered and rejected that options for no doubt good reasons. I’m just leery of getting locked into a proprietary format, though I realize you can export to rtf after everything’s done.

There’s probably no holy grail for big writing projects, as much as we’d all like to find one. Devon, so far, comes closest for me.

brett
PS I PMed you a while back to tell you that I live down the road (or up the river) apiece in Eugene, though I visit Portland often.

HI Brett. Yes, I too use DT for anything that doesn’t need citations or foot/endnoting–fiction projects, essays, etc. And I do have issues concerning Word compatibility (right now mostly with dissertation advisors).

Mellel is great for my dissertation, which is huge, needs lots of management, requires endnotes, and has lots of sections, many of which get moved around a lot!

Ditto for me on both points. And as for the holy grail, man, did I spend a whole lot of time trying to find it!! But it doesn’t yet really exist, at least not that I’ve found.

Sorry I forgot the PM. I don’t see it in my PM list for some reason. Many apologies. Eugene, yes, not far away at all! We moved here four years ago (from New Hampshire and before that the NY/NJ area), and we absolutely love it. We are here for good!

Sounds like you are working on some pretty interesting projects. I’ll be so glad when the dissertation is done. I have many other projects that (at least right now) seem like a LOT more fun to me!

Alexandria

Hi All,

I thought I’d clarify what I meant way back in this thread with regard to a visual way to view document/database structure especially since those sentiments have been repeated a few times by others. Many folk it seems would be quite happy to have a chunkier outliner and concept/mind map on top of DevonThink(DT) to help make DT the all-in-one research/writing tool. I agree but would suggest that it would be nice to go a little further and provide a variety of visual AND simultaneously editable views of the structure of DT database. This I think would complement the wonderful things DT does already and make it easier for either the textual and/or visually orientated amongst us to do some quite powerful structural manipulations of notes, resources… anything.

To make what is in my mind a bit clearer, I’ve taken some screen shots below of the TinderBox workspace which is based upon XML and allows one to write and arrange notes (amongst other things) in a variety of ways. It can function as an outliner, a concept/mind map and so on, but for me its great strength is in the different views of the document structure in which you can still rearrange, drag-and-drop and write into. These alternative ways to visually ‘think’ and write are what attracted me to Tbox in the first place. Unfortunately using Tbox to its full capacity is not so easy as it requires considerable patience and dedication. It has its own cult following and for some its their ‘holy grail’.

Screen shots of Tbox views: http://www.eccentrix.com/members/andrew/tbx_views/

I’d really love DT to do something similar to these views. I don’t understand how to use TinderBox fully and it feels difficult to configure. Overall it has failed to excite me apart from these views. I could still use Tbox to do my writing (Ive paid for it after all) but a number of things are holding me back; my need to use Endnote (I know, but its free at my Uni), ease of use, weak OS integration and the management of non-text resources (PDF etc etc). DevonThink so far excites me and also does all of these things that Tbox doesn’t.

By the way, I can use Endnote inside DT because EndNote is a service that I can access while writing a DT note. Because it is in RTF format I can also use the Endnote service to format the citation and bibliography if need be right there inside DevonThink! If I leave the Endnote unformatted citations intact, I can scan and format later in MSWord after importing the RTF notes from DT.

Finally, to describe my current process for those interested…

I have also almost decided to use OmniOutliner to take notes as I work through my literature review. Why?.. because its fast, its simple, works with Endnote via services, documents are very small and I can export an RTF to DevonThink to include in my database. I can move between home and work via email. Later though as I actually write my exegesis I will need to have the whole DT database on hand on a portable hard drive.

I said ‘almost’ in regard to OmniOutliner above because right now I am trying to assess whether Circus Ponies Notebook is for me as a result of reading this forum.

This is interesting, because it comes very, very close to what I described to the developer of HBN in terms of my own ideal program. I included mind-mapping abilities and being able to view my project in different ways. I don’t know if I specifically mentioned the ability to rearrange things, but Mellel has this sort of capability and I did mention that and it is the one thing I can’t do without in Mellel.

Anyway, this sounds wonderful. But in my humble opinion, mabye unlikely to make its way into any one program. At least in the near future! I could be wrong, and I’d be happy to be wrong, but I’m sort of getting that idea!

I had someone recommend Tinderbox and I downloaded it and started to try it out. It was this experience that finally ‘broke the camel’s back’ so to speak. I realized I’d had enough of trying to find the one program that would do it all, and for me at least, I needed to pick out of what I had and find the ones I thought I could work with. I myself need it simple, and I decided to pick DT and find a way to work with it that matched my needs as closely as possible.

I also decided that it was more realistic to expect that the developers would take what is already there and make it better, like more robust outlining, etc.

Anyway, I think your idea of having a varieity of visual and editable views of the db structure, or parts of it (I’m thinking of group views here for individual projects), would be amazing and would also satisfy my own way of working incredibly well. If it is possible, I want it!

Thanks, Andrew, for taking the time to describe this for us and offer the screen shots. What is amazing to me is how similar these ideas are to each other–how many of us seem to be asking for teh same kinds of things. I’d say there is a definitely need!!! And a market for such a program that can ‘do it all’!

Alexandria

While finding xuanyingzi’s ideas interesting (and very similar to what I used to believe), I’m also now in the paring down school. I used to use CP Notebook for quickly making clips of information on very specific topics, a task at which it was very good, but I never liked actually reading the information I had saved there (I found VoodooPad to be much better for that purpose). But CP Notebook isn’t going to waste: I now use it as a website development tool because of its good export functions (including to .Mac). I don’t use it for all kinds of web development, just course handbooks and manuals and similar things. I’m not sure, though, to what extent this is simply attempting to find a justification for my purchase.