New Thread: Why is tagging a "must have" these days?

Actually, you could tag instead of filing into folders. Or combine it. A smart folder could do the filing for you, based on your tags. That’s good because you could keep all your documents where you put them, and pick upp the ones you need for your next project by tagging them with your project name. Then the smart folder could gather them all up for you. Or you could have a gigantic unordered pile of tagged documents and have all the filing done by smart folders.

All we need now is a slick tagging interface to put all those tags onto stuff.

What I’d really like in DT are Smarter Groups that could be a combination of criteria matched items plus ones added manually, e.g. something like Journler’s Smart Families.

I’m bored with only having fixed file/folder hierarchies relentlessly forcing me to choose where to store data. I want a tagging system that can combine the benefits of hierarchies and allowing data to simultaneously appear in multiple locations. For me it’s all about having more flexible ways to view data, not the tedium of how/where to store it.

Yes, it is about viewing (= finding) and not storing.

For those who can’t imagine why some of us think tagging is important, I venture to add some length to this thread, including some invocations of ancient software:

I may store 20 articles about the history of chemistry in a file so named, and that is useful. What do I have about “history of chemistry”? Just look at the list of titles in that file. But suppose there is something odd, off-topic, in one of those articles: by the way, famous chemist X happened to suffer from some neurological abnormality. On down the line, I want to find that dimly-remembered fact to integrate it with, well, whatever. I cannot remember the name of the individual or of the specific condition. How am I going to find this? Tags offer a possibility (not a certainty!) IF I tagged the original item AND if I have a visible list of tags.

Presently, I “tag” things just by adding words to the top of the article in DTP. But I’ve no way to see what tags I have used, short of putting each such term on a dedicated list every time I use a term, and then alphabetizing them all periodically. So, did I add “epilepsy”? “synaesthesia”? “neurological”? I cannot tell, unless there is a tagging system and it shows me a list of all my tags.

Also, if I use my workaround to add terms, say, “epilepsy” because that relates to some interest of mine, then all I can do is search for that term and look through every single item that contains that word. With a tag system, you apply the word where you think it applies and you retrieve only items you applied the tag to. (You can rely on DTP’s search to turn up an entire list of items containing the word, so you only need to tag for special purposes.) Without such a system, I have to look at every article that mentions the word once, even if only in the title of an article in the bibliography.

Finally, hierarchical tags such as the ones used in Keyword Manager for iPhoto (and in the old lamented citation organizer, Papyrus) enable refinement of searching. To keep with the epilepsy example, that term might be placed in a hierarchy: Brain > Neurology> Disorders> Epilepsy. Disorders could include various other subheads, so when you want a broader look that includes but is not limited to epilepsy, there you are. In iPhoto, I have Animals > Wildlife, and Animals> Pets > Dogs >then subcategories for each dog I’ve had fun photographing. These hierarchical categories are very useful in narrowing or widening my view of what I have.

Papyrus, a product of Research Software Design in the late 90’s, utilized a system of linked keywords which allowed the same term to appear in more than one hierarchy! Epilepsy (I am regretting this choice of examples, but too late now) could appear as: neurological disorders> category A >epilepsy, as well as social welfare >accommodations for disabled persons >epilepsy, and you could search for either one, and not retrieve the other set. I still have the manual for Papyrus, and I just looked at it to refresh my memory.

Another late lamented (by me, anyway) program is Mailkeeper, a text snippet organizer from the Nisus Writer folks. It allowed you to establish keywords in three parallel columns, attach any keywords to any item, and then do additive/subtractive searches by clicking or option-clicking on various terms. Show me everything tagged with Carnivores and Felidae and Africa and Population, but omit anything tagged with Lion or Nigeria—I don’t want to see those items. Is that a dream or what? Instant lists of qualifying titles, instant changes in search criteria: add Asia, tell it to omit Africa, add 19th century, add Africa back again…

What we are trying to do is add some of the abilities of the human mind to applications. Fuzzy searches, hits involving criteria that are somehow related to the stated search criteria, adding and subtracting sub-criteria, our brains do all this on the fly.

chcheney, I quite agree with you.

Although I don’t do a priori tagging such as adding keywords to each of my documents as I add them to a database, I do use a form of tagging in the sense that I assign documents to specific databases, and then to specific groups.

That’s a form of hierarchical tagging. If I have a group x that has a subgroup y that in turn has a subgroup z, I’ve created a taxonomy. Items that are in group z are also members of group y and furthermore of group x.

I can select group z and view all the members of that group.

But there are limitations to this classification system. I can search for a group by name, but I can’t conveniently search an item for it’s group location(s) (it’s possible for an item to be included in multiple groups). That’s a pretty significant limitation. If I have replicated an item to several groups, I can’t conveniently see all of those classifications when I view that document, nor can I set up a search for multiple groups and see a list of those items that are members of all of those groups, or of some of them but not others.

The tagging system coming in DEVONthink 2 will vastly enhance the ability to find and view items by classification (tags) and add to the user’s ability to “on the fly” add searchable and viewable connections (new tags) among items in a database.

I could tag a book to its author, to my notes about it, to related books and articles, etc.

There will be a tag view of the database.

If I’m looking at an article about dogs, it will become easier to relate that article to others about dogs, pets, canines, mammals, etc. – and afterwards to explore the information in a database using such relationships.

As always, there are practical limits. I use my databases to satisfy my needs. But I could spend most of my working time simply working on improving the current classification schemes in my databases, to the point of becoming obsessive about that and never getting anything else done. Because I do need to get things done, I compromise and tend to classify content only well enough to get a job done (which, thanks to the assistants built into DEVONthink that can work around organizational deficiencies, means my organization is pretty sloppy). I concentrate my efforts on classification of material when I’m working on a project and know my needs, rather than at the front end as new content is added.

The coming DEVONthink tagging system opens new, virtually limitless horizons for spending one’s time doing nothing but tagging. Perhaps the applications should carry a warning label as a service to those with obsessive/compulsive tendencies. :slight_smile:

At 67 life’s too short to engage in consuming time in this way.

However:

At 67 life’s too short to expect the gray matter to have the recall abilities of one’s earlier years, and therefore taking the time to add tags might make the remainder of one’s life to be freer of time consumed by repeatedly asking the question “What am I looking for?”

And a sincere thanks to “chcheney” and others who have given me a new and positive appreciation of the tagging process (refusing to use words like “meme” and “paradigm” here…).

Hi, Tod. “Meme” isn’t too bad, especially as it was transmogrified to “Memex” in Vannevar Bush’s seminal article, “As We May Think”. That article inspired a lot of people and was prophetic. Bush had a pretty clear concept of what could be done by tagging (relating) pieces of information.

His “paradigm” was limited to the technologies that were around or on the near horizon in the 1940s. It has taken decades of digital technology to make a Memex cheap and practical, but we’re getting there. A fast Mac with lots of RAM and disk space, Internet access, a few peripherals and DT Pro Office – we’re in the ball park.

There you go. I stuck in both words. :slight_smile:

Sheesh. :unamused:

so asking DT when they are going to implement a feature they’ve already promised to implement and have actually included in the current user interface without enabling the underlying functionality is now considered “whining”?

Wow.

That’s really arrogant and obnoxious.

in fact, I just came back to search these forums to try to find an update on when tagging functionality will be implemented. This thread makes it sound like it’s been discussed incessantly but I can’t find a thread where the DT folks give an update on this status. Could someone point me to such information?

And yeah, obviously, I’d find this functionality to be very powerful and helpful.

I think you have it reversed. The underlying functionality is there: “replicants in groups” are “tags.” It’s the user interface that hasn’t been enabled. (Actually, there are some bits enabled.)

I’m using “tagging” today in DTPO. So are you gonna whine, or get busy?

Best, Charles

I gotta say I freaking HATE these kind of remarks. Asking legitimate questions is not whining and it’s obnoxious as hell when others infer that it is.

If tagging has been implemented and I’m missing it, then instead of providing antagonistic and less than helpful responses, how about pointing to useful resources explaining how to use it? Do I have it backwards? I don’t think so. If I go to the info panel for an item I see a tags panel but I don’t see where anything can be done with it. And some months ago I asked DT about it and they said they’d put in the user interface features but had not yet implemented the underlying functionality to use it.

Threads asking how and why people use tags and why it’s a desired feature are great. Posts that denigrate those who wish to use them, or categorise those asking for the status of this functionality as “whiners” are just immature and ridiculous. Grow up.

Well, how about earlier in this thread? Did you read it, or just skim the “whiny” parts?
http://www.devon-technologies.com/scripts/userforum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8124#p38333

As I simply repeated in my recent post, “groups” are “tags.” You can replicate into a group to “tag” an item, and when DEVON unveils their “Tag Interface,” VOILA! you’ll already have done the hard work and be that much ahead of the game.

If you need help with groups and replicants, I’d suggest RTFM.

. . . . .

“I know: the food is good around here, but the service is much faster at McDonald’s.”

Best, Charles

Charles, what is your problem? It’s like you’re going out of your way to be antagonistic about this.

Yes, I read the earlier posts.

No, I have no interest in using cobbled together replicant/group functionality to substitute for genuine tag functionality. I’m hoping they use standard tagging methodology, simply allow me to assign tags as another data attribute to existing records, then manage that from within the existing but disabled user interface.

Yes, I’ve RTFM.

Why you deem it appropriate to approach this subject from your holier than thou perspective is beyond me, but it’s inappropriate and childish.

Hey guys, can you move your personal disagreements to PM if there’s reason to continue them? Thanks.

Duly noted SJK.

would still like to know, is DT planning to implement formal tagging functionality and, if so, when? If someone could point me to somewhere they discuss this I’d be grateful.

If DT’s approach to tagging is what Charles outlined above, then while that may fill the needs for some users, it does not for me. That’s a cumbersome way to do what I’d like to see DTPO do.

That said, I can actually use the comments field to get reasonably close so this is by no means a deal breaker for me. I’m a DTPO user and very much enjoy and respect the program as is. But formal tagging would be one more nice addition to an already impressive app.

Let see if this works as an explanation, because if you start investing time in tagging via comments, I think you’ll just be making a lot of trouble for yourself.

What is tagging? This has been explained by others on this thread very well, but let me repeat: it’s a many-to-many connection between a set of words (“tags”) and a set of records in a database. If this isn’t clear, I’d suggest looking at a basic text on relational databases such as Codd or Date.

The database functionality required to support tagging is already (and has been for a while) working in DT. That is: items (records) in a database can be replicated (connected many-to-many) to names of groups (words). The name you give a group is functionally a tag in DT, and the items contained or replicated in the group are “tagged” with that name.

So DEVON Technologies has (mostly) provided the database functionality necessary to support tags in DT. What hasn’t been released is the user interface to give the many-to-many connections between groups a presentation that corresponds to a typical “tag interface” in a typical Leopard application. (There are probably other niceties like OpenMeta export coming, etc., but again, those are functionally small issues.)

So right now, the user interface expresses those many-to-many connections via a groups-and-replicants metaphor, and (not yet) a tagging metaphor. This is why the greyed button is located in the upper left of the DT window: it’s simply another view of your data and the connections you’ve made. You’ll simply flip between a “tag view” and a “replicant/group view.” There’s no change to the underlying structure of your database. In one view, it’ll be a tag list attached to a document, in the other view it’ll be a selection of documents contained in a group. Or, looked at another way, today we look at many documents attached to one tag, but with the upcoming interface, we’ll be able to look at many tags attached to one document.

So today, if you create groups that have the names you would give tags, and replicate (or move) documents that you would tag with those names into their respective groups, when the “tag interface” finally comes along, you’ll simply hit that formerly greyed button and your data will be properly tagged.

However, if you pursue some kind of adhoc tagging scheme using comments, you’ll have to undo all your work later, perhaps realizing that groups and replicants were already functionally providing the relationships you were trying to build.

And finally, I can’t imagine that DEVON will give us anything but a fabulous tagging interface when it arrives, and I’m happy to let them take their time with it. I’m sure they’ll let me know when it’s done. :wink:

(I should also mention that I have no special knowledge of what DEVON Technologies is up to. The above is simply my speculation, although I think I’ve been pretty careful about analyzing what I read here on the Forum.)

HTH, Charles

@Charles:
Thanks for adding your thoughts to the growing tagging canon within DTPO. You and others have provided some very helpful observations and background surrounding this (unnecessarily) contentious issue.

@rmathes23: As a fellow user who pined for other features/improvements while using DTPO 1.x, I can understand where you’re coming from. Please note that I am the OP of this thread and I’ve found many great and helpful posts detailing the need for tagging by users and how they’d like it to be implemented, as well as general information about tagging. I have personally learned a great deal from the back and forth in this thread, including your own remarks.

I’m slowly shifting from a “no tags no how no way” attitude to the “yes, tags will indeed be everything I need from DTPO” party.

Charles…thanks for that last post. Now we can move on to a much more productive conversation.

I well understand database structures. I used to design software for a living.

Your point is well taken that replicants/groups can be used to create the many to many relationship that is the essence of tagging, but from a usability perspective it’s just not an approach I’m interested in pursuing. And while your point is also well taken that if I use comments to substitute for true tags that I may need to undo/redo all this work once real tagging is available, the same may hold true for your approach.

I want to keep things simple. I do use folders, but at times I’m not even really sure why. DT’s search capability is so strong that I can almost always find what I want pretty quickly with standard searches. The “almost” part of the sentence above is where tagging comes in. I’m essentially looking at tags as a more formalized keyword metaphor with the ability to structurally work with those tags in a systematic way. I doubt I’d tag everything I save in DTPO, but I can see tagging certain items where the material might not make it such that simple searches would readily ferret the item out of the library.

Twicks…i appreciate you starting this thread. It’s contained a lot of good information.

I still do have one remaining question, and that is what DT’s plans are for tags. Do they intend to implement these at some point or have they abandoned the idea? Just kind of weird to me for the UI to have elements for it but without the ability to use them. I assume it’s coming at some point, I just have no idea when. And I trust when it finally does arrive it will be very cool indeed.

Might I suggest in the future that “in the moment” is the best time to address an issue that has emotional content for you, and not after it’s 5 months dead?

Except you might want to consider this:
http://www.devon-technologies.com/scripts/userforum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7652

DEVON technologies is already on record about a migration path.

Most sincerely, Charles