redesign the UI

Excuse the analogy, but the constant nagging in the forum about the ui reminds me of a couple in the post-honeymoon-phase where both partners tell each other to dress up (or to diet), eventually threatening to leave for someone who looks better. On the other hand, they already grew accustomed to the spouse’s heart of gold etc… (DT isn’t pretty but quite smart, and hopefully stays true in the future in terms of support for coming OS changes…).

UI changes might be less important for the advanced users than for first-timers in trial mode who flirt with different database solutions. For an advanced user, a better appearance might be less important than improving the core features, but still, the user experience (with the program, of course) could be a little bit more fun than now…

Mark

CheepnisAroma
If you dont need more than that Devonnote is perfect for you. I need more and i have paid for more, therefore I agree with frmoses:

What’s in real need is DT 2.0, the revised database structure, and things >like multiple databases open in DTP at once. Oh, and I’m all for the >turning of the functionality in many of the scripts into actual features >with a proper UI.

Let me give you another example. Every day I have to change the windowsize, because a professional tool like DTp Office cant remember the windowsize. If I open more than one databases, close it sometimes, i have to change it every time. Every time. these are that small details which makes you crazy in daily work, and i have to work with it every day.

I did not say that it isnt a great product, but it needs refinement/redesign. And it needs it asap, not anytime.

I´v seen other great products with phantastic functionalities, slowly dying (or sold to an mediocre competitor) because of 2 main faults:
very long time between the updates, without solving the essential problems asap:
uncritical prayers on the list, which let the developers believe that everything is still working fine.

I was looking for such a tool many, many years, Now I have it and nearly my complete organisation is based on DTpO. I dont want to change all that again, thats why i m thinking it needs a “redesign”…

wolfgang

Devonnote is good, but do not handle pdf, quicktime and other common formats. Devonthink PE does that, but would gain a lot from an updated UI, tabs (as mentioned), an easy way to import mail (which it had til it’s scriptability/folder-actions was removed to differentiate it from the “pro” versions) and full screen.

(A way to get full screen functionality is to combine it with WriteRoom, which work reasonably well with DN but not with DT, as the command cmd-ctrl-O, that WR uses to open up the full screen, in DT is used to launch URL. But, of course it would be preferable if full screen was a built in function).

I have a feeling though that I am preaching to deaf ears. As a daily user of DT (and DN) since their infancy, I have noticed that since DT went “pro” and ultimately “office”, DN and the original DT have been the Cinderellas of the family having to do with the left overs from their more favored siblings.

The consumer or prosumer applications of Devon still has a lot speaking for them - excellent AI, “see also” etc. - that the competition still has to catch up with. But competing apps are entering the market and are developed at a fast rate, while DT PE and DN are threading water.

Sometimes I suspect that Devon Tech is working on a “prosumer” application that takes the best from DN/DT, adds some new functionalities and a user friendly UI. But that might be a pipe dream of someone that want to stay loyal to applications that have been a large part of the daily work flow for many years.

Perhaps the consumer/prosumer niche is not for Devon and it is time for us who are only interested in seeing DT/DN evolve and keep up with the times, to start looking elsewhere.

I must confess I have no gripes with DTP’s UI other than I’d love to see the comments window included in the 3 pane view (as I and others have mentioned before).

In terms of priorities I think everyone with a huge database will agree that reliability and speed are infinitely more important than keeping up with the so called “competition”. Handling a huge database is where DTP shines.

Just my two cents.

– Paul

Agree, and i have some huge dab´s especially in Mail. But thats where DTp office not shines anymore. DTp office crashes on importing (since weeks resisten any updates) uses 450-500MB of Memory and 1,47 Gb virtual memory.

wolfgang

Hi, Wolfgang. Large databases make heavy demands on a computer’s resources, especially memory. And use of artificial intelligence features demands more memory than for a ‘dumb’ database.

Christian has made many tweaks to improve speed, and a major redesign of the database structure will come in a major upgrade in the future; it will – among many other things – reduce memory requirements and increase speed.

I can accept speed effects as databases gets very large (my own response is to split them by topical content), but I can’t accept stability problems, and I don’t have them. I’ve got databases larger than yours, without stability problems. I haven’t had to resort to a backup for more than two years (but I make a habit of backing up, as something catastrophic could happen at any moment).

If you have crashes, something is wrong. If you like, you may send your crash log to Support for a diagnosis.

Usually crash logs indicate a problem with the operating system, perhaps induced by an incompatible application or utility, perhaps errors in the disk directory that could arise from many possible causes. Over the past few months we’ve seen several stability problems caused by a certain haxie that modifies the appearance of the OS. Unfortunately, it seems also to do other modifications of the OS as well, resulting in problems when DTPO makes calls to the operating system.

In such a case, there are only two solutions that would correct the resulting stability problems. [1] by-pass the OS so that no calls need to be made to it – that avoids the problem of a damaged OS – but that approach simply isn’t feasible. [2] Remove the conflicting utility and repair the damage to the OS – something the user can do, perhaps with a bit of advice.

Note to all: Please don’t look at this as a defensive response along the lines of “DTPO is perfect, so if there’s a crash it’s the user’s fault”.

Although OS X is a very stable OS, it’s not self-maintaining and self-repairing when errors creep in.

Thats why I so often “preach” two complementary approaches to users, and adapt my own habits to those approaches: use routine preventative maintenance procedures to keep the OS clean and stable, and make frequent backups of important databases. For DT Pro and DTPO users, the Backup Archive routine is so convenient that it really should be used. Storing that external archive file to another external medium also prevents total data loss were a hard drive to fail, or if a laptop is lost or stolen.

EOS (end of sermon) :slight_smile:

I suppose this might be a retro-compliment for things perhaps old-school, but all of the sudden I noticed that DTP does it right!

What am I talking about? Something very simple.

"Don't take action on an item until keyUp."

What am I talking about?

I remember reading more than a decade ago somewhere in discussion of Apple’s Interface Guidelines about the commandment to not perform the action of a keystroke until the key comes up, rather than on the keyDown.

Why does it matter?

More and more applications these days seem to take the action on the keyDown, and during keyStillDown which renders navigating by keyboard almost impossible. For example, going up and down a list with the arrow keys until you land on the correct item. The way DTP, and I suppose, older apps work is that you can quickly zoom up and down the list, and only after landing and releasing the key is the item’s contents revealed.

But later apps, like NetNewsWire, the new email app I’m evaluating, GyazMail, and to my horror, Vienna, all take the action while the key is still down, meaning that it is impossible to move up and down a list quickly. In NetNewsWire, you also ‘touch’ or ‘soil’ the virginity of the item being looked at. So you simply can’t use the arrow keys.

Only in recent years using these ‘modern’ apps do I see how clunky they are compared to the elegance of the ‘old’ ways.

This is one of those things that you don’t notice when it is done right, but one sure notices when it’s done wrong like in many of the other apps.

So, forgive this weird little kudos for a lot of things that DTP does right. Also, BTW, I have made quite a few iKey nifty kbd shortcuts to do almost everything I need to do quickly with a keystroke.

I’m not the mental giant you guys are so this ain’t as eloquent as you might say it, but still… :slight_smile:

Well, I was only discussing the look and feel of the DT product line, not their “core functions”, so to speak. I’m satisfied with the interface (please Christian, add tabs!). I regret I can’t open 2 databases or more at the same time but I know this is planned. Actually, I’m waiting for DT Pro 2. I guess we’re all eagerly waiting to see what this release will bring to us, Devonthinkers :wink:

-snip -
Hi Bill,

Christian has made many tweaks to improve speed, and a major redesign of >the database structure will come in a major upgrade in the future;

again: Future again. I need it now. I have to do my job now, not in the future. And I have really waited a long time.

I can accept speed effects as databases gets very large (my own response >is to split them by topical content)

How, if I cant open more than one databse at the same time? (Main problem)

but I can’t accept stability problems, and I don’t have them.
Does this mean i m an idiot, because i have that problems?

I’ve got databases larger than yours, without stability problems.
How do you know the size and structure of my databases? Sorry Bill, you did a great job here on the list helping all of us, make work with DTPO easier and more effectiv, but that sounds really strange…

If you have crashes, something is wrong. If you like, you may send your >crash log to Support for a diagnosis.
DTPO is unstable, not my system. i had not one systemcrash here (Macbook dualcore). I do a permanent system maintenance. Maybee I have some entries, titels, formats style sheets, files, filenames you dont have, which cause that problem.

In such a case, there are only two solutions that would correct the >resulting stability problems. [1] by-pass the OS so that no calls need to >be made to it
I did it: The same as every time.

Please don’t look at this as a defensive response along the lines of “DTPO >is perfect, so if there’s a crash it’s the user’s fault”.

But sounds exactly like that.

Let me come back to the roots of this thread (the crash is a different anamal): redesign

2: If i import the Mail archive in DTPO, opens a window. The window mirrors Mail. I have to select which folder: this folder or all folders. But it shows allways a folder structure from Mail which does not exist anymore. I cant change it, I cant do nothing. On import crash after some minutes.

I have imported the same Mail archiv into Eaglefiler.

1: no problem, all worked fine, slow but fine.

In EagleFiler: drag the folder from Mail to the Libraries of any open databases: voila!
Thats the difference in the GUI, I would like to see in the semi/professional product DTPO…

use routine preventative maintenance procedures to keep the OS clean and >stable, and make frequent backups of important databases.

I need my whole system backed up, what i do frequently to different (also external) volumes, therefore the DTp-“only” backup is useless for me.

EOS (end of sermon) :slight_smile:

I know that Cristian has done a great job, where the hell is the problem that DTP cant make progress?

EOW end of whining :wink:
wolfgang

I think they are waiting for Leopard to build 2.0

Um… no. For heavy users, the UI problems are not about “fun” but about effeciency. When the UI makes me play Twister to perform the tasks I do many times every day, then I’m highly vested in getting the UI fixed. Not fancified: fixed. Don’t dismiss UI complaints as newbie-whinging.

And anyone who feels that DT has the ugliest interface of any critical (for me) Mac app should spend some time with Bookends. I feel like cursing every time I hit cmd-s to save and then remember that he’s remapped cmd-s to something else. I love Bookends, but the interface is downright evil.

DEVONthink on the other hand is simply annoying, not evil. It is especially annoying when we discover that other, less capable applications can perform these simple tasks with aplomb and grace, whereas we are forced to limp and scratch. Yes, DEVONthink can do more, but it’s not always pleasant.

I vote for an interface update according to the suggestions mentioned previously, however, I would lke to see an equal effort put into improving the user interface as into the documentation.

Be assured, I don’t. However, the more time I (have to) spend with DTPro (Office, recently), the more I get used to it. But you are right, once the dull interface starts to cost you time, a line is crossed. This is why I’d also vote for setting a redesign on the agenda: If you lose your scrolling position in a longer document every time you perform a “see also”, you start to wish for certain UI elements (tabs, for a start).

Since I upgraded to DTPro Office, however, with every searchable PDF that I add, the database grows bigger and bigger. The usually-suggested workaround (aka “kludge”) to stick to topic-related multiple dbs does not work here: Since this is my dissertation, it all belongs to my topic. What if I have 5 gbs of searchable PDFs? What about 10? 20?

Support for multiple databases (open and searchable at the same time), support for huge databases with a small footprint in terms of memory hogging, improved search operators: these are features that are really crucial to me, and they become more pressing day by day.

And yes, I also vote for a usable, functional, sleek interface IN ADDITION to these core features I described above, especially since I work with this app every day. A Margret-Thatcher-brain with Miss-America-looks sure would be great, but please, not the other way around.

Mark

Margret Thatcher? Ahem. I second your prioritization, if not your specific example.

check out this app. Definitely not comparable to DT in functionality, but its UI is very nice I think.

mekentosj.com/papers/

You weren’t kidding. That’s a gorgeous UI. A touch of that would make me upgrade to DTP 2 8)

I really like that it has tabs. What I also like is that the notes are integrated into the main window. very mac-like.

Fascinating: All the papers developers did was to borrow from iPhoto (and a bit of Safari / Mail), and now it looks like something from the i-life-suite. Nice.

But to re-phrase my earlier (perhaps unlucky) Miss America/Maggy Thatcher comparison, Papers is a great example for what happens if developers spend their time on ui. Browsing the website, it struck me that features like “Read your papers” (sic!) full-screen are on a different level than what the DT people offer - more “browsing” than “organizing” - and just PDFs, not any rtf-notes, pictures, movies…
But who cares, if the looks of the “great features” become more and more sub-standard?

Mark

take it easy Maak, I wasn’t comparing the features of DT with Papers, just the UI, as I specifically stated in the first post mentioning it. DT blows it away for features, no doubt.

And the iLife/Apple style is popular because they are good UI’s.

sorry - my last statement was not very clear: At the moment, DT’s appearance at the moment really is sub-standard in my eyes - apps like Papers demonstrates, what the current ui standard looks like…

and if the app loses touch to this ui standard, less people will eventually buy the app… although the packaging is only the promise.

Mark

There are several things I like about the Papers screen, notably tabbed document windows and the notes field to the right side of the screen. (I’ve been using a very similar screen setup for years, sizing and placing the Info panel to the right of my document and view windows so that I can always make notes in the Comment field and use other features, such as toggling State, launching Path or URL and so forth.)

I would, however, be disappointed if this were the only view window available in DT Pro. For example, I prefer the Vertical Split view when I’m reading or editing a displayed document, because I can see more of it without scrolling. And I like to have subsets of view windows available, e.g. for a project I’m working on. There are times when the Icon view is useful, especially for choosing graphics and photos related to a project.

There are elements in Papers that are very specific to the sources of material for which it is designed. PubMed ‘pre-packages’ author, title and abstract metadata, but the vast majority of sources DT Pro users might access do not do that in a standardized way. Perhaps DT Pro might capture such information from some sites and depend on the user to supply the metadata manually for other sources. Because the next major update will include metadata enhancements, that’s a good area for discussion. For scientists and academics, metadata such as Author and Journal are very important, but for many other users they are not very important; in my databases I can already identify the journal or other source of most of my content by a search of URL data, and likewise for authors (very precise searches of that kind will be possible in the next major update). The metadata associated with documents, including user tagging, will definitely receive developer attention in DT Pro “next version”.

The right pane of the Papers view is obviously rich text instead of the current plain text in DT Pro. Disadvantages of plain text are that one cannot establish hyperlinks (static or Wiki) in the Comment field, use character formatting or place a graphic element into it. So a rich text notes panel attached to every document would be something I would like to see. But I would like to retain the other information that’s currently in the Info panel, as well. I make a lot of use of that information and quick launching via URL or Path buttons.

I’ve played with Papers. There are a lot of things I do like about it. But as it happens I often do searches that include PubMed as a resource, and I find DT Pro and DEVONagent much more powerful than Papers, both for finding and organizing reference materials and for analyzing them in the database.

But then I’m an experienced user and have found a lot of tricks that are available in DT Pro – which has a lot of features that aren’t available in Papers – but may not be immediately ‘seen’ by the novice.

For example, I used to complain that when I press the See Also button on a document I’m viewing, I lose my scrolling position. No longer. Kludge: select the document in a view window. Now also open the same document by double-clicking on its Name. Read the document in its own window, scrolling down as you go. To check for possibly related documents using See Also, do that in the view window. Result: no loss of scrolling position in the document window. But another approach – perhaps tabbed windows, perhaps something else – can prevent the problem of losing scroll position in the first place.

There are many, many things that one can do with DT Pro (and its sister, DEVONagent) that can’t be done in Papers. Some of those things are obvious to new users, some are not. The challenge is to make the interface more obvious and usable. But don’t expect a ‘pretty’ or ‘fancy’ interface, as such an approach would detract from the emphasis on power and flexibility that has been the objective from the first incarnation of DEVONthink. The appearance of Papers is quite simple and straightforward, which is good.