"ideal is subjective. Some people do not prefer a hybrid renderer like you’re describing.
5 Likes
may I ask why?
if you are asking about Bluefrog’s assertion, that some people don’t prefer a hybrid renderer - I’m an example. When I am writing markdown, I prefer to see markdown - and then I save, and go look at the rendered, often in another screen. I have been using iA Writer, sometimes Marked 2, or MarkEdit, and look at the rendered result in DT.
2 Likes
I prefer seeing the syntax when writing. Seeing all the asterisks feels authentic.
I prefer a hybrid renderer experience when editing, especially when many markdown links are involved. Links are long and intrusive. The DT editor exasperates the problem by emphasizing links instead of dimming them. See the following screenshot for instance: the x-devonthink-item links command unwanted attention.
I edit much more often than I write, even though I probably spend more time in total on writing than on editing (a writing session typically lasts much longer than an editing session). Using an external editor for writing is fine for me. Doing that for editing is not OK, however, because it involves constant switching between apps.
The current DT editor is optimized for neither writing (because the margins are not comfortable or configurable) nor editing (because links are intrusive and distracting). A hybrid renderer is just one of the possible remedies.
2 Likes
The current DT editor is optimized for neither writing (because the margins are not comfortable or configurable)
Hey Meowky you might have stumbled across it already, but have you checked out view>full screen>document (fn-cmd-F7), not to be confused with usual full screen. If you go to settings> editing tab you can set your width down the bottom. I find this minimally distracting, and also allows controlling the margins. I have set mine to 50% on my MBP. Just in case you haven’t seen that.
Agree links are long and distracting especially when there are a lot.
Thanks. I knew that but never used it, in part because it requires me to exist full screen first. (I’m one of the endangered species of macOS users who actually use full-screen application windows.) Moreover, the default line height is more troubling to me than the line width is.
While you’re welcome to share your thoughts (as everyone is), these are also very subjective things. There are some changes under consideration in editing but be remember DEVONthink is not a bespoke Markdown editor like e.g., Typora.
1 Like
That’s true. I understand that the dev team can have sensible, legitimate reasons to prioritize other things than the writing/editing experience.
On the other hand, should the user complain about something irking them really hard if the devs don’t think that something is important? I believe the user should complain. And complain loud enough that the devs can hardly ignore it. That’s how democracy works.
Democracy doesn’t work by complaining (unless you’re using poetic license in your phrasing), nor does development. Things can happen by dialogue and discussion, not complaining, no matter how loud one wants to be. And remember, the decision is ultimately up to the group who can actually affect or dismiss the changes.
PS: Constructive criticism is not complaining and is certainly more welcomed.
PPS: Don’t think even I get all my wishes. Some ideas are too limited in scope, or there are far more pressing issues, or not enough time and resources to add yet another feature.
1 Like
I don’t get this. Complaining includes a wide range of methods to express one’s dissatisfaction (see dictionary). Some of them are certainly constructive and/or formal, such as lobbying. The term does not refer exclusively to the kind of things a kid would say when their parents refuse to buy them a Playstation. “Complaint” does not carry a negative connotation in formal settings.
How is constructive criticism not complaining? Just because the receiver actually appreciates it?
Compare the following:
This apple tastes bad.
This apple tastes bad, probably because it was not preserved in the right way.
You might agree with me that the second is more constructive than the first. That doesn’t mean the second sentence is not a complaint, though.
I don’t, either 
I never get a wish if I do not even speak it out in the first place.
I don’t get this. Complaining includes a wide range of methods to express one’s dissatisfaction (see dictionary). Some of them are certainly constructive and/or formal, such as lobbying. The term does not refer exclusively to the kind of things a kid would say when their parents refuse to buy them a Playstation, nor does “complaining” carry any negative connotation in formal settings.
Perhaps it’s a difference in language, but complaining certainly carries a more negative connotation. Also you need to consider the audience you’re speaking to: this is fundamentally a support channel like our support ticket system. In many circles, IT is called “the complaint department” and we certainly see our share of actual complaints (though we are fortunate most of our clientele are nicer than most). So the word complaint means something in here it may not in discussions with your peers (though I wonder how it would be received there as well).
How is constructive criticism not complaining?
This is no place to argue semantics but here’s a distinction you may wish to consider:
- Complaining implies the demand for a change, especially when directed at someone who can affect it. Criticism is an assessment, positive or negative, with no expectation of change.
- Constructive is something edifying, providing some usefulness, something to build with or upon. That’s helpful and welcome.
I don’t know if you know the old adage about “You catch more bees with honey (constructive criticism) than vinegar (complaints).” but that certainly applies, not just in development but life. 
And speaking socially, complaining doesn’t lead to both parties feeling good about a situation while constructive criticism can. It fosters a sense of working together or at least participating in a dialogue versus a monologue.
1 Like
I see how positive criticism may come with no desire for change. However, negative assessment without an expectation of change is by definition pessimism. It’s unclear how one can be constructive and pessimistic at the same time.
From a subjective perspective, negative criticism always comes together with an explicit or implicit demand for change. For example, any bug report comes with the implicit demand that the bug be fixed. You can call that criticism-complaint if you want, though I prefer a simpler term 
Personally I have never ever seen criticism which is not constructive, sarcastic or insulting. When I am able to exclude the later two possibilities, I’m 100% sure my critic intends to be constructive.
If that’s true, why do we feel complaining is bad when the dictionary does not indicate negative connotations?
IMO this is the same situation as the n-word in the US, or its many Chinese counterparts: an initially neutral word gradually associated with negative connotations through enduring bigotry at the society level, not negative by definition. Complaining feels disturbing because my personal ego, as well as that of my community as a whole, is made of glass. It’s an issue with ego, not an issue of the person who complains. Using an alternative term without addressing the cause of taboo is not constructive.
Indeed. In actuality, whether criticism registers as “constructive” depends primarily on how it is received. Here is the dilemma of activism (and all other kinds of public advocacy): there is the social expectation to be an easy and friendly bud, and there is the law that more disturbance produces greater impact and thus greater chances of success.
We are too far off-track from the topic of this post now. Thanks.
2 Likes
Hi Jim,
It’s good to hear that improvements to the editor are under consideration. I had no doubt that they weren’t, of course: the Markdown environment in DT3 has made so many reallly useful improvements over the last few iterations.
But may I make a repeat of my regular request you consider typewriter scrolling? For me, this is the main reason why I have to use an external editor for long notes. It is really distracting to have the cursor butting up against the bottom of the window, particularly as we have no control over line spacing and margins.
It doesn’t even have to be full typewriter scrolling – even something like Overscroll (as implemented in, say, BBEdit, where you have a short cut (ctl-L) to return the editing line to middle of the screen) would be a vast improvement. (DT3 implements ctl-L, but not at the bottom of the text, where it is really needed.)
This isn’t a plea to turn DT3 into a full-blown Markdown editor: it would benefit RTF and Formatted notes users alike, of course.
I’ve asked for this a few times over the last ten years (and the first feature request for it on the forum was 2009), so it would be good to know that it is on the roadmap.
Thanks!
1 Like
@meowky You are trying to make an argument, even though arguments don’t matter. It’s not about competing for the best or most constructive ideas to find the best solution.
The DT team doesn’t need a “good” reason to reject or fulfill a user’s request. They simply decide because it is their software. That is their right. We as users have the right to buy and use their software - or not. If you use software like DT for a long time and for everything, your brain plays tricks on you and makes you believe that the software belongs to you.
Any comparison with the functioning of democracy is absurd and leads nowhere … no relevance, just a side thought: When Europeans talk about democracy, it becomes clear that their understanding of it can be completely different. When Americans are added to the mix …
But because DT users are not children who need to be protected from the unbearable truth, the obvious truth can be stated without any problems.
Anyone who sells a product does so because they want to make money. The buyers bring this money. In the end, it’s about finding a balance between what the majority of buyers want and what the seller himself is ready to deliver.
As far as DT is concerned, I’ll give you the same advice I always give myself. Relax. We can make a wish. Sometimes wishes come true and sometimes they don’t. DT is good enough, otherwise you wouldn’t use it. And if you find something better, you don’t owe the company an explanation as to why you’re turning away. Ah, and guess what, the company wouldn’t care either.
2 Likes
It always surprises me that no one seems to understand or recognize political activism, which to my knowledge is not uncommon in either Europe or NA. The entire point of activism is to make a person or institution with actual power to comply. Activism at its core is dead simple. Activists achieved what they want, including some of the most consequential changes in recent history (such as women’s suffrage), by complaining loud and clear, aka protesting, in formal and informal ways.
Complaining does not change the fact that power remains in the hands of said institution. Nevertheless, complaining works by appealing to similar-minded people who pass by and inviting them to join the act. The number of complainers makes a difference; 5 is not much different from zero, but 5,000 cannot be simply dismissed.
Of course, it does not sound like a good idea to politicize a software. But the basic principle of activism applies beyond democracy and politics: If you really want someone to hear you, you should repeat what you say, loud and clear, through multiple channels. Post your message on public boards. Ask your friends to relay the message. It is not guaranteed to work, but it is a good try. All these are not stressful in anyway; you are just doing what you should do, so nothing to relax for.
Some of us make wishes privately. Some prefer voicing their own wishes and (often implicitly) asking others to join hands. Neither way is guaranteed fulfillment. And neither is better than the other, I think.
Enough said.
4 Likes