Zettelkasten, Roam, Obsidian, RemNote, Notion and Co

DEVONthink Tips
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Thanks - I watched it. A lot of conceptualising and “theory” but the essence is really that bullet list, which can be collapsed and expanded.

This allows seeing numerous short notes at the same time, working on them together. (plus one can open different ones side by side). It is the design of what is possible with typing in the line that makes the design useful.

I gave this in RenNote and Notion a try with an example, where I collected notes, ideas, to then rearrange, merge, organise them and immediately found this work very well. I did not even use any links, tags or backlinks, just the user interface of this outlining, indentation with collapse and expand, did the trick for me.

The only reason why I do not want to use Roam or RemNote for my research, is that I want my notes in files (ideally in DT :slight_smile: I would be ok to use this for meeting notes or to dos, but otherwise I don’t want to store my notes in some container format in the cloud. Wordflowly is Chrome-based. Obsidian is based on md files on my machine but it does not have this new outlining bullet point user interface of Roam and Workflowly. The JS plugin stuff is also not something I fancy but I do find the outlining technique really good and I’d love to have such a tool to work on files in my computer.

My point here was to again put the attention to the user interface behind the collapsable outline in Roam, Workflowly and RemNote. When I started my review and trials, I thought I would end up discussing what Zettelkasten is about, pondering whether its for me etc, only to realise at the end that it is the simple user interface that makes a big difference to whatever one does with it.

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IMO the only use case for which DT doesn’t cut it for me (leaving me to meander between OmniOutliner, Tinderbox and more recently, RoamResearch) is the outlining case. I still feel the need for a fluid thinking-as-outlining tool somewhere.

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  • what is
    • so hard
    • about
      • outlining
        • in DEVONthink
        • ?

:slight_smile:

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I guess it does not make sense to discuss this any further, here.

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I guess it does not make sense to discuss this any further, here.

I don’t see why not. No one has said anything untoward or personally attacked anyone in the thread. :thinking:

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Apropos of this thread, has anyone done any real work with TiddlyWiki? (https://tiddlywiki.com/) Or Stroll, which is specifically positioned as a Roam alternative? (Stroll — A Roam-like experience in a free, downloadable file) I’ve glanced at both and they look promising, but I haven’t really dug into them.

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I also appreciate the thoughtful review. I could also point to some other software I’ve found useful (Scapple and MarginNote), but I think a main thing coming through is that knowledge work is a process, and we all have different processes.
The didactic focus on outlining I understand you pursue to help CS students learn technical writing and academic journal/conference publishing puts breaking things down in manageable chunks for working on in preparing a written text for publication makes huge sense to me for that purpose. The Zettelkasten, Evergreen, and other approaches seem to be more focused on creating repositories of materials that are more or less close to processes of note taking and organising materials for writing. Some are amazing extensions of the persons thinking capacity.
Other comments suggest none of us have the perfect approach yet, even for our own use, but greatly benefit from the exchange. On that note, I may not ever outline in DT, but that’s where every digital text I’ve ever read can be found. DT is uniquely capable and powerful in ways that might make traditional librarians concerned about their future in my experience.

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Katherine, there is a discussion of TiddlyWiki on the Zettelkasten forums – https://forum.zettelkasten.de/discussion/1054/tiddlywiki – I don’t know if you have seen it, or if it might be of any help.

Cheers, M.

29

Dear @kewms and @fharvey , thanks for the hints.

The comparison of TiddlyWiki to Obsidian makes sense. Stroll is a response to Roam and looks really interesting. It maintains the notes-as-cards editing approach but otherwise implements various ideas from Roam. Nice that the developers took note of the developments and responded with Stroll as a new approach to TiddlyWiki. Thanks again for the tip.

I have by now come to the conclusion that the outlining experience of Workflowly and Roam is really nice and using it has had an immediate benefit for me. The user experience is largely determined by the following features, I think:

  • The outlining feature that creates a note of notes
  • WYSIWYG markdown style editing
  • Collapse and expand of blocks, notes and lists
  • Mirror notes (block level transclusion)
  • In situ preview
  • In situ search
  • Autocompletion
  • In line boards
  • In line queries
  • Easy re-arrangement of elements (e.g. dragging or keyboard based)
  • Automatic renaming across notes
  • The focus mode (which people also use in demos and presentations)

… plus back-linking, graph view and all the fancy things that I initially felt were most important but which I myself have not found useful, yet. What the feature list above allows is fast keyboard-based editing of multiple notes, handing several notes simultaneously. Everyone decide for her or himself which of the features above and the experience of using them is available with DT and DTTG (and the other tools mentioned in the thread and their use in combination).

It is not just the feature list (“hey look, I can outline on paper as well”) but the simplicity and ease of use that makes the difference (for me). It took me some time to appreciate the subtle differences which is why thought it would be worth sharing.

My hope was that the discussion here brings up ideas for tools that could do that on top of DT, as an editing front end. I also tried various markdown editors that would improve the note taking experience in combination with DT and DTTG. There are lots of threads with ideas for other note takers and markdown editors to be used together with DT and DTTG. Of course, the people here come, at the end, to the conclusion that everything can already be done with DT… .

With kind regards

Olaf

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Had not seen it. I’ll take a look. Thanks.

31

A new contender, Athens Research, was just released today.

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It seems like Craft released an update a few days ago that supports external storage locations.

A couple of weeks ago, we introduced Craft Connect. With Craft Connect, our goal is to ensure you have full, practical ownership of your data and support you in connecting your thoughts and work across multiple products. As a part of this initiative, we are releasing External Storage capability - meaning you can use Craft without your content ever touching our servers - providing you with full, physical ownership of your data.

External Locations gives you the option to store your documents locally on your device, whether it’s your iPhone, iPad, or Mac or in any of your iCloud Drive folders.
Maximum privacy. You can choose to store your Craft documents locally on your device, so it will never sync to any cloud services or have access to the internet. Your documents will be as securely encrypted as your entire system.
Full control over your data. You have full control over in which folder your documents are located, so you can access the source files of your Craft documents with all the attachments. You can create your own backups or do whatever you want with your documents without limitations.

I’m not a pro subscriber of Craft, but it sure sounds like Craft documents can be stored inside DEVONthink with this feature.

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And there is another thread on the same site I’d forgotten about: https://forum.zettelkasten.de/discussion/1617/tiddlywiki-for-zettelkasten-questions-answers-and-experiences

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Update about Craft inside DEVONthink. Not currently possible, but planned. Quoted from a support email I got literally 5 minutes after asking:

this is currently not possible as we are using our own json format, but we are planning to introduce a markdown format too.

So if I understand this correctly, this means Markdown formatted notes using Craft as the editor, stored inside Devon.

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I’ve been working with tiddlywiki and Stroll for a couple of weeks now (after 15 yrs of teaching writing with wikis at a US university). It’s come a long way from its single-page days, with multiple-pane views and backlinks, extensive control panels and customization. It is, however, fast. Just to see what’s possible, I’m running it on a rasberry pi 4. As a wiki, it’s worth exploring.

I’m trying to integrate it with my daily routines but struggling getting material into the wiki: it’s all copy and paste to get content in, as it tends to be with web-based apps. Editing is also a little awkward and can be fussy, especially on a tablet - again, as with many web-based apps. Navigating content is good - the interface doesn’t get in the way - which makes it a good candidate for a project wiki, perhaps a zettelksten. But it falls frustratingly short of being elegantly integrated witih more powerful desktop note-taking apps. Perhaps I’ll try indexing tiddlywiki’s folders with DT …

In keepiing with the OP, tiddlywiki strikes me as ideal for advanced tech writers to experiment with. If I were still teaching, I’d give groups of (grad tech writing) students a raspberry pi and ask them to set up a tiddlywiki, develop a project and content for it, then federalize their wiki with the other groups … That is an advantage to web-based content.

  • m
36

You got me :slight_smile:

Yes, I left the meaning of outlining vague (though, thanks to @Wolkenhauer for clarifying the scope).

It is definitely possible to outline an indented structure within a note, and perhaps it’s “good enough” to say that one may use a dedicated app that supports this “within a document”.

Thinking some more, all documents (whether plain text notes or tinderbox/excel documents) are equivalent within DevonThink, and privileging outlines might create asymmetry.

Still, there is scope for some “intermediate solution”: we do after all make certain types of notes easier to interact with (rich-text notes), we have special modes for others (markdown notes are rendered), and we have limited-functionality notes (simple tables); perhaps on these lines we can have “limited-functionality outlines”? (similar to e.g. FoldingText ones?)

37

Thanks for the info. Craft, like Notion, has the basic outlining, with fold/expand but not the Alfred-style in-line and keyboard-focussed elements. I am also watching their development. The developers also appear responsive to such discussions, which is nice.

Their design for use with iPad and iPhone is very good and I am happy to pay for an integrated feature list, rather than community-based plugin development. Having said this, I am amazed what dedicated users produce as plugins for Roam and Obsidian. The skill level and creativity is very high. I wish I could return to my younger self and contribute in that way. When it comes to programming, sadly George Bernhard Shaw‘s saying applies to me: „He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.“ :slight_smile:

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An anthropologist’s view on (back)linking…
Prof Michael Wesch - Web 2.0 … The Machine is Us/ing Us (see YouTube youtu.be/6gmP4nk0EOE)

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@Wolkenhauer This is such an excellent writeup of various options in the note-taking sphere. Thanks for taking the time to put it together! I’m excited to explore possibly integrating Craft and DEVONthink.

I continue to use DEVONthink that my main note source, and area to think.

You make an excellent point:

We all know that once people are sufficiently in love with their app, they will adapt to limitations, or find ways to address these for themselves.

There are some things about any one of these apps that does better than the others, but at some point you settle into one more than the others. DEVONthink is excellent at handling pretty much all file types, and can open notes in most any other app as desired. The AI is fantastic once you have a notebox up and running. I don’t outline much, but I do use Mindnode, Scrivener, and OmniOutliner, all which I can have in my DEVONthink database. I want my stuff housed locally.

Regardless, the veritable explosion of note-taking apps is both fun and overwhelming to watch.

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Hi @Kourosh . I was expecting you to have reduced your arsenal of apps further than me :wink:

With MindNote, Scrivener and OmniOutliner you use 3 outliner apps … . This suggests there is still a gap to fill for developers :slight_smile:

I also use MindNote extensively (for outlining and even up to 3 hrs seminars) but what do you mean by “all which I can have in my DT database”? I use it completely independent of DT.

MindNote has the visual appeal, but does not do well with “notes”, ie a paragraph of text. Their notes cannot be formatted, or include URLs and have to revealed, rather than being part of the map.

Scrivener is more geared towards long form writing and is not markdown focussed. I am puzzled that their outstanding and widely praised corkboard feature is not more often seen in other apps.

OmniOutliner is very flexibel when it comes to formatting your outline but is lacking the Roam and Workflowly ease of use and flexibility to relate notes.

So, we keep on searching. I am hoping for more ideas in terms of integration with DT, keeping my files in there but when it comes to creating ideas and notes from material inside DT, I’d love to have something that is more immediate, available on the iPhone and makes use of the design language that we see in many of the iPhone, iPad and Mac apps.

With those new developments one also notices that for those JS-browser based apps, some developments are driven by user-developers, while for other apps, the developers are actively engaging with the users to decide on their roadmap and feature list. In both cases, the users care about their tools.

With the pandemic, there has also been a considerable push for online collaborative working. I find myself now using tools I would not have thought of using one year ago. The moment one relies on working with others, the need to work across platforms, OS etc comes into the picture as well.

Exciting developments!

Olaf

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