Zettelkasten, Roam, Obsidian, RemNote, Notion and Co

If you need the files not to be on the cloud then, as you said, the other options do not really make sense for you.

Following is not useful for your special case, just wanted to simply share my situation. Maybe it will
help others with their workflow.
In my case. I was looking at a possible workflow to manage my library on DT, read pdfs on iPad and then bring my pdf highlights into Roam with the extract highlights feature of DEVONthink.
However, the people in Roam community have newly created a pdf highlighter tool, which makes me incline toward using it for my readings as well. (Again, a JS script that you mentioned, you do not fancy)
(Walkthrough video of the PDF extension for Roam in case anyone is interested: Academic Workflow in Roam Research with PDF Highlighter Extension - Tutorial - YouTube )

Thank you for the article! It is a good read.
Good luck with your quest :slightly_smiling_face:

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As a follow up, if you are a researcher and wonder how one can synthesize knowledge through note taking, you may find the article by Joe Chan interesting:

Knowledge synthesis: A conceptual model and practical guide

I have to admit that I never thought about how I go about doing my research. I came to this topic via the idea of small tasks in project managment and then the idea of atomic notes in the Zettelkasten and Evergreen Notes context.

The trick with getting things, tasks, projects, and manuscripts etc done is apparently to split things up into small units, something that can be done, and thereby generates success, which in turn motivates and makes us happy.

Some of these ideas actually worked for me, which is why I started looking into the smart note taking topics. Here is the workflow that I have figured out for myself. It is adopted from Joel’s process, which is visualising what Roam can be used for quite well. There is a YouTube video of him explaining this. At the end, everyone has to find your own process but I enjoy reflecting on this. I have not come to a conclusion about this but the following diagram is what could reflect my going about it, which also suggests how I tag the files etc. Wish me luck in turning this into something worthwhile teaching my students. Right now, I am a student of this myself.

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How is this outliner implemented?I mean toggle. :thinking:

Brand new user here. I’ve used every technology you described. Here’s my absolute #1 reason for putting the lion share of information into DT: End-to-End Encryption.

Obsidian Sync offers it too, but they’re not offering nearly as many options to do so, and I think they’re limited to 4GB at this time. I like them for wiki notes, so I might try to figure out how to get DT and Obsidian to play.

Everyone else encrypts in transit and at rest, but I’m not aware of other’s who don’t hold a 2nd key to those encryptions
 including iCloud.

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Joe Chan’s essay is very good. Thanks for the pointer. He writes some passages that seem to spring from the same source I’m coming from and the same issues I try to address.
What I don’t have yet figured out is the piece that connects a) notes with their context to b) networks of source documents. Right now, a is really complex. An evolved collection of notes from many years and many ways of making notes. DevonThink is my b (complemented by an Evernote library I selectively extract from and copy to DevonThink. My DevonThink libraries are big, but so useful. But, I imagine linking a to b would really multiply the usefulness for research and preparing publications. That’s what I hope to do with Obsidian, but I haven’t figured it out yet. Any thoughts/comments in this great thread?

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I transferred all my notes to DT
What’s the benefit of your Evernote library?
I know Evernote supports cloud and multi-platform access to our data
edit; Handwriting OCR search indexing

Could Evernote serve as an easy web capture method? (good web clipper regardless of the operating system used).
On the other hand, could Evernote be used as a “buffer” to be able to decide what kind of information is good to be introduced in DT?

A suggestion on this: Adventures in Digital Research — Using Evernote and Devonthink Together | by Christopher Sirrs | Medium

It works with any device I have and when away from the office. I use it as kind of an all-around web capture tool. That’s the main reason. the other reason is it has note from all kind of activities for 10+ years.

It’s not perfect, by no means, but reliable.

“buffer” is too nice a word. I use it more like a recycling center. What I introduce to DT is a separate process/step.

THanks for the amazing discussion about Roam, DT, Obsidians and some of these other tools.

I have been using Ecco for about 25 years, which is getting a bit dated at this point. But it does work out amazingly well for one particular workflow which involves

  1. organizing notes from different sources in stories as a hierchy by source,
  2. Filing subsections of these notes into a story outline
  3. Generating a new outline that includes the source’s name and title as the top level element under their notes.

I imagine something similar could also be used for web notes, but int my case its notes from interviews. I have never found something that works as seamless, but would love any pointers to things that might. To be honest, I am not sure what this is called. Ecco was kind of in a magical caterogy of single pane outlines, and fast at that.

@tchen04 and @Wolkenhauer mentioned to some of the features that sounded similar like
DevonThink Replicants,
Workflowy Mirror Nodes
Roam Transclusion.

They all sound promising, But I have yet to come across a workflow that easily makes it easy to track the source of the material when reassembled through this kind of process. Would love any pointers to processes in these tools that might work for this.

Here is an example of what this looks like:

Ecco Hierhical File Links Clean 2

I would love any insight into how to implement this kind of workflow with some of the more modern tools.

Thanks!

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do you still use Ecco? on which Windows?

With some time passed since I looked into PKM apps, Obsidian has made significant progress, now with a mobile app and soon with an editor in which the markdown is presented directly.

Roam, which received a lot of attention, appears to be loosing the competition, while Obsidian doing really well.

For me, with Obsidian would still be the focus on taking notes (thoughts, research ideas, notes from literature etc) to then connect these and synthesize something from it. DT would still be my repository of all sorts of documents, not just research ideas. My preference would still be to do everything in DT, of course :slight_smile:

For DT, a lot of functionality is there, but the packaging and interface may not be so inviting, or convenient for the average non-scripting user, it seems. I, for one, has still a lot to learn, even though I use it every day. I wish it would be a layer that makes it a little bit more intuitive for someone like me.

I am curious to see how things develop and seeing an over 25 year old tool in action, doing cool stuff with handling notes is interesting. Thanks for sharing this @glawton

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Which is some of why we don’t immediately jump on the bandwagon regarding feature requests on third-party apps. Roam had a ton of traction, just as Obsidian does. Notion was the flavor of the month previously, along with a long list of other must-have applications.

Re: DEVONthink, what do you find difficult to do?

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Writing is not the outcome of thinking; Notetaking is the process when thinking takes place

that idea is Richard Feymann’s I suppose

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Not sure whether there is a bandwagon to jump on since DT is riding already in the same direction. I think Notion has its role for teams, for example. It does however not serve as a personal repository for private documents.

While you will again claim that everything is possible (see above your comment about outlining), I don’t understand why you cannot see the advantages of a foldable outline and instead makes jokes about it. I don’t think DT is a good outliner tool.

For those who collect many short notes for research and want to synthesize new ones from existing ones, need an interface in which you can view many notes together. This is the corkboard view of Scrivener, or what Obsidian supports with the partitioning of the screen. (It would often help to have a preview of the first lines of a note, for short notes this would already do help overseeing notes to find relations.

In DT, I have two windows for the markdown and its preview, wasting screen estate. Obsidian will soon avoid this with direct editing, which makes other markdown based apps appealing (e.g. Agenda), where the writing experience is a bit more “elegant”.

I personally have not yet made proper or successful use of linking really and so I have not yet used a graphical representation of linked notes to my advantage. But this is surely my problem (e.g. of age) and I assume that there are people who make good use of it. DT has some graphical representation as well and the See also but how that works is not transparent and again, its somehow not so immediately available and customisable as in Obsidian.

Handling many notes is not always about storing or manipulating them. What I refer to is the use of DT for notetaking, where the notes should be used together to create something new. As the Feynman story from Sönke Ahrens explains, thinking as an external dimension, which is note taking. At present, I make full use of DT to store my notes but not to create notes from existing notes, as part of my thinking. This however is what some other apps are trying to support more actively.

Surely, there are elements of a hype that will settle but the ideas of notetaking and outlining will continue to be of interest, as they have been for decades now.

There is nothing new about this, only that I take notes now with my iPhone (suprising often) and having everything in sync across locations is something that is now possible and is used.

To my surprise, considering that I am really not so affine with every feature of my gadgets, I even used Drafts on my iPhone to take a note while walking the dog. This is not something I desperately want to do but in that situation it mattered and I talked to my iPhone, for the first time, and the transcribed text was made available on my Mac when I was at the computer in the evening. I have not done this since but it shows that things are now possible that may have a use. This does not mean that I expect DT to have such gimmicky functionality.

I made my case for more fundamental issue regarding outlining and synthesizing notes from existing notes and I guess you will now post again a screenshot of a bullet point list?

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I agree, none of the Devonthink editors are good as an “outliner tool”
I use an external word processing editor, with the document file stored in Devonthink
And for spreadsheets I use an external spreadsheet app

@Wolkenhauer

Allow me the analogy with “Lord of the Rings”.

“An application to replace them all”
This is not fantasy but science fiction.
No application will ever replace all the ones you use.

In Fantasy, we would rather say:
“An application to index them all”

“One ring to rule them all,
one ring to find them,
One ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.”

DEVONthink is my power ring to control all my apps

P.S: I asked Gandalf if there was a way, free, elegant, with a universal file format and data I own to bring me an indexable outliner in DT, he replied:

“Logseq, you fools!”

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:laughing:

And though I have no particular use for Logseq, I’m glad to see this under their Pricing header


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Very interesting question. I loved Ecco Pro more than any other piece of software I ever used, and although I use Devonthink and OmniOutliner and like them both very much, nothing has ever been able to do what Ecco did.

The example you gave - of culling selections, pasting them somewhere else and retaining the identification of their source - is a very good one. I do it manually, with a Keyboard Maestro macro, so when I copy a selection from a source document, the macro will paste that text into an OO outline, then go into the item’s Note pane and paste the name of the original document. It’s labor intensive, but it works for me. (YMMV.)

It would be wonderful if DT would give us this option: to copy some text from a source document in DT, and simultaneously copy the appropriate metadata from that source document so that when the selection is pasted into a new document, the metadata (name of the source document, URL, etc.) automatically goes along with it.

Anyone know if that can be done?

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Goes along where? Into a DEVONthink record? What type of record? Or goes along into another app? Into OmniOutliner?