DTTG Smart Groups?

I am a Mac guy too… but the future is iOS. I understand the problem you have as developers.

Most developers will be developing mainly for iOS these days. You have such a good app in Devonthink that you will have lots of Mac users for now. I think you are getting it about right.

The reason is that I am genuinely interested in understanding the “iPad only” concept. I travel enough with my MacBook (or at least used to before the pandemic) that I would much prefer to replace it with the iPad if possible.

I have read with great interest many blogs and forum posts in various places about people who have tried to entirely replace a laptop with a tablet (Apple or otherwise). I try to read as many of these stories as I can. So far I have yet to see a true success story where someone has replaced a laptop with a tablet entirely and believes it is a superior solution.

If my MacBook had cellular service, it would be cool but it would not replace my iPhone. I do hope that tablet design improves such that we can indeed have one universal device - I suspect a “folding laptop” may be where we get that first. But so far I have yet to see the case where someone has truly replaced a laptop with an iPad for both creating and consuming content and feels it is a better solution. I remain interested in hearing that use case when it comes up.

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I have not only completely replaced a laptop, but have replaced a Mac for 99% of everything. I’m a designer, consultant, and educator. Different jobs require different tools, so it really depends on your needs, but I do all the typical business stuff and some very specific professional tasks. There was a time when it required some extra workarounds, but in the last year, I’d say that’s mostly ended. Really, the experience since around last summer is quite different than the one before.

What benefits do you see from iPad only?

It’s more, what benefit would I gain from having a laptop? I can’t think of any.

I (we) think the Mac still has a long way to go and yes, you’ll pry a MacBook out of my cold, dead hands :wink:

We look at iOS, not as “the future”, but as a complementary platform. It’s not the successor to macOS. They’re compatriots, not adversaries.

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I relate to where you’re coming from. I am 1000x more productive on a Mac - desktop or laptop - but my work involves apps and tasks that are macOS-specific. It really depends on your individual definition of “work”. Could I replace my Macs with iOS devices? Nope. Not even if I didn’t work for DEVONtech and was back in graphic arts and printing full time. But the things I do aren’t the things everyone does.
:slight_smile:

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Mutiple open windows

Multiple open applications in background

Much more flexibility of Window arrangements

Ability to open multiple Windows per app
Menu Bar

Keyboard Macro and Text Expansion applications

Ability to shift “Focus” of keyboard to a specific application

Ability to use multiple monitors

Easy Copy/Paste between apps of large amounts of data

And lots more

Now you may say none of that is important to you - OK (though unusual for someone who uses a computer for work or as a college student). That said - what is the killer feature(s) that makes the iPad superior to a laptop for you?

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What do you see as the typical usage/use profile/tasks for your iOS-only or iPadOs-only customers?

rkaplan, I’m not interested in getting into what my work is or isn’t or how I specifically work, as that would take way more effort than I’m willing to give. We clearly have different needs, and I’m totally OK with the fact that we need different tools, as I think everyone should be. I will say that that touch and pen support is critical to my work, and that it really is a kluge on the Mac. Also, I find it easier to do the following on the iPad than the Mac:

  • Share content between apps — I actually find this much better on iPad than Mac — more direct, less reformatting
  • Easily create inter-app links via drag and drop
  • Stay focused — all those simultaneous open windows you talk about is inefficient for me, especially when I have apps that provide all the info I need to be focused right in front of me
  • Switching between apps is more flowy for me, which is why I don’t have to have a lot distracting windows open at once
  • Markup (this is huge)
  • I find jumping in and out of work mid-flow much easier on the iPad than Mac — the Mac always seems to require some tweaking to return to my previous state
  • Direct interaction via touch
  • Pinch, zoom, etc is smoother and more widely adopted
  • Sketching and writing
  • Multitasking support is more useable when I need it, with quick re-configuring for slide-over and side by side
  • The interface looks and feels better to me — it’s more modern, cleaner, less cluttered, refined, still powerful; also, app developers are forced to be more intentional which in most cases leads to better UX (when I do go back to Mac, it feels so unfinished to me)
  • Hardware is easily reconfigurable throughout my workflow, from tablet, to keyboard, to pen, and back again without missing a beat
  • It’s much less intrusive in meetings when used as a tablet
  • The screen is phenomenal, especially the dynamic refresh rate
  • Battery life, though it sounds like that has improved on the laptop side
  • And, the way DTTG works with Files.app is exceptional

While it’s improved a lot, I’d say the biggest area for improvement is still the file system, but I don’t find that a much of an issue anymore with improvements to the system and how the world has changed around file management, but if I do ever have a why can’t I moment, it’s around file management.

I’m sure you are going to have counters to a lot of what I said that’s relevant to you. Again, I’m not trying to convince you to switch (though it feels you are trying to do so to those of us not using laptops), but hopefully this helps you understand how other people may have a different context and perspective.

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Thanks for the thoughtful list. Very insightful, though I have to disagree on the black-box of file management in iOS (and the lack of Terminal, but again that’s in my wheelhouse, not yours) :wink:

Black boxing is a double-edged sword. Apple is in a tough spot here, as I find file-level digital literacy in rapid decline in the general population, while threats from bad actors are increasing, so it’s protect and provide a good experience to the average user at the cost of the expert user. It definitely makes your job as a developer harder, since you have to work around black boxing, but when you get it right, then it’s not as big a problem for me :slight_smile: I definitely prefer file access in Mac, but with each passing month, it’s less of an issue for me.

And yea, if I was doing coding or any local terminal work again, I’d be lost without the Mac. I’ve seen some cool workarounds, but they look a bit convoluted. I have had no problem working on remote servers, though.

I’m just glad DEVON is giving all of us the options to work how we need to, instead of forcing us into workflows.

I guess it’s what @DGGoingUphil mentioned: use cases can differ greatly and in the end those make a platform suitable or not.

To add to the whole list of iOS benefits is my personal favorite: security/safety.

Yes, (zero day) exploits exist on iOS as well, so always stay on the lookout, but in the end I can think of very few devices that are as robust when it comes to this. Should I recommend a device to the less ‘technically inclined’ of this world that somehow quite frequently end up with all kinds of exotic software on their desktop computers (everybody knows who I’m talking about here :grinning:), my ‘go to’ device would be an iPad.

Downloading from a dedicated App Store and the sandboxing obviously has it’s disadvantages, but of course also it’s advantages.

Thanks for the input.

No counters. To be clear - I love my iPad. I totally agree that there are use cases where an iPad is better than a laptop (including in meetings as you say, and in my case while piloting an airplane as another).

My point of puzzlement - and again, it’s just my curiosity, not trying to convince you of anything - is how an iPad can replace everything. I totally get how some things are better on a tablet, some are better on a smartphone, and some are better on a laptop/desktop.

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Understood and we’re trying to preserve the rights and abilities of the expert users as well, just as we are looking out for the other crowd.

Apple is interested in lowest common denominator with iOS and it makes sense in terms of sales volume. We are trying to maintain the higher denominator too, even if we limit our market share to some degree, i.e., DEVONthink will never just be a simple browser/note taker so we could sell a million copies. :slight_smile:

PS: “lowest” and “higher” is no expression of the importance or superiority of one set of users over another. Just common parlance.

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Was this done yet?

No, but they are coming.

But DEVON isn’t - the kluge mentioned above about copying contents of a smart group to a regular group just so it can sync to an iPad and be “seen” there is forcing me into an unneeded workflow.

As for sharing content between iPad and Mac, when I have some serious sharing to do, I’ll sit at my Mac to get it done more quickly; iPad work to me still has more friction. And I have a number of “work areas” that require a Mac (e.g. Filemaker development); the iPad is just a satellite/data entry device. Granted though, iPad is a joy for consuming content, and of course the Apple Pencil/iPad combo is a definite plus.

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Hey! I’m new to DevonThink and am in my trial period right now. I finally had an hour or two today to start organizing my DT + DTTG setup and hit this wall today. I’ve read over the thread and I’m a bit confused about this point:

Understood and we’re trying to preserve the rights and abilities of the expert users as well, just as we are looking out for the other crowd.

Can you elaborate a bit more on this? I’m not fully grasping how smart groups in DTTG would limit the rights and abilities of expert users. Unless that was about blackboxing, in which case I just misunderstood the context :smile:

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As for the whole iPad as a computer debate, I use mine as my primary computer. I do have an iMac and 16” Macbook Pro, but I only ever use the iMac for work. The MacBook pro on the other hand literally sits in my desk collecting dust (we’re required to expense laptops for work travel). For all intents and purposes, my iPad is my computer.

I’ll also note that I’m a power user myself, so that setup isn’t just for laypeople. Here’s a quick overview of what’s in my dock:

  • Social folder - Message, Work Email, Discord, etc.
  • Apollo - Reddit of course
  • Safari - Tried other browsers, but since they’re all webkit wrappers anyways I went with the one that’s the most integrated in to the OS
  • Slack - Work
  • Hey - Personal email
  • Fantastical - Calendars and tasks. It’s setup to sync with my task / project management in Amazing Marvin, and has calendar sets for myself, my wife, and our family (events for our toddler)
  • Raindrop io - Bookmark management. Might switch this fully to DTTG if I end up buying though
  • DTTG - Again, trying it out to see how well it integrates in to my workflow
  • Craft - Notetaking for work, personal, development, etc.
  • Notion - Record of truth for my life. Everything feeds in to Notion (or at least it will once I’m done setting it all up one day)
  • Termius - Terminal access, which everyone here seems to complain about. I SSH in to my Media Server setup in my home office and have full access to anything I’d need terminal for. If you don’t have a computer to SSH in to, there are self contained *nix environments on the app store. Ultimately though there’s nothing I really need terminal access for on my iPad (Working Copy for example is an excellent git app)
  • GoCoEdit - Coding, plain and simple. It’s setup with an SSH connection to my server and I can open, code, and save remotely. If I need to do any building I can switch to Termius (assuming I don’t already have it split screened)
  • Jump Desktop and Screens - VMs. I run a Windows VM on my server so I can use the (abandoned) ComicRack program to organize my comics. I also have a Big Sur VM for Xcode (and now DevonThink). One day Apple will release XCode for iPad and I can get rid of the MacOS VM (well, except for DT now I guess). I access those on Jump via their Fluid protocol. I use screens to access my VNC enabled docker containers for things like JDownloader.
  • Media folder - Plex, Netflix, Music, etc.

On my dock alone I have a setup that pretty much fully detaches me from needing a Macbook / iMac. Beyond that though I also have things like Windscribe for VPN, MindNode for mindmapping, HTTPFlow for inspecting web pages, Surge for network related stuff, Supervisor for managing Unraid on my Media Server, AdGuard for ad blocking, Serveditor for connecting to my Code-Server (VS Code) instance should I need to, and more. The only thing I need the VMs for are legacy programs like ComicRack, or for apps like XCode that can work on iPad but are waiting for Apple to build it. Keep in mind that new iPad Pros now have full M1 chips, just like the Macbooks. And with the Magic Keyboard the hardware isn’t a limitation either. Mine stays in the MK case and is used as a laptop. Unless I feel like relaxing in bed and using it causally, in which case I just pop it out and it’s good to go (Pencil and all). So if anyone doubts an iPad can be used as a computer, trust me. It can.

To wrap all that up, smart groups on DTTG would be appreciated, as would not relegating it to “companion” status. I’m still debating going all-in on the DT ecosystem. It’s a substantial up front expense that I’m willing to make, but the hampered experience of DTTG and the accompanying view of it’s place in the ecosystem are giving me a lot of pause.

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It is no trivial matter to implement smart groups in DTTG; as such, some of us had suggested (possibly as an intermediate step) implementing representations of smart groups which had been set up in DT in DTTG - so providing the smart group with its contents, but no option to edit that smart group. IIRC that was what Jim was alluding to when he suggested that implementing smart groups would limit the rights of expert users on iOS.

It’s not so hard to imagine implementing smart groups in their full glory on iPadOS. It’s less easy to imagine the dialogs required for setting the group up on an iPhone.

DTTG will never be able to provide the same level of functionality as DT does; iOS lacks AppleScript support for one thing - a major factor when considering smart rules, for example. I do find myself wondering whether DEVONtech might split DTTG development, though - leaving the app on iPhone to be a pretty powerful companion app, and the app on iPadOS to cover a larger range of the functionality offered by DT.

Thanks for offering insight into your life with iOS. My iMac remains my computing hub - but the MacBook has been relegated to a rather less prominent position (making its cost untenable, actually) since I purchased an iPad with MK.