How moral is it to use DEVON products?

For the benefit of those users who do not follow German politics: you might be interested to hear that just about a fortnight ago yet another German minister had to admit having heavily plagiarised in her PhD thesis. So many German ministers have submitted plagiarised PhD theses in the last 20 years, that probably everybody lost count.
Plagiarising does not seem to be quite so common as Covid19 in Germany these days, but it is surely not an exception.
Most thieves (irrespective of nationality) regret being eventually caught, not being immoral in the first place.
Here is an exchange between me and Christian Grunenberg:

sent on 12 February 2021 at 13:50–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Dear Christian,

Thank you for your latest update.

With regard to markdown:
I have used for a long time MultiMarkDown Composer developed by Fletcher, which works very nicely together with Marked2 developed by Brett.
Would you consider integrating these two applications into your DEVONthink? (Fetcher’s app for editing, and Brett’s app for previewing)?
MultiMarkDown has offered, as an example tables, and the like, for quite some years now. In my humble opinion, it is by far the best MarkDown editor for macOS.
Please let me know, what you think of my proposal.

Thank you,
Adrian

sent on 12 February 2021 at 15:11–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Dear Adrian,

thank you for the feedback! We use the MultiMarkdown engine to render Markdown documents but there are no plans to integrate external apps into DEVONthink, I’m afraid.

Best regards,

Christian Grunenberg, CTO

sent on 12 February 2021 at 18:09–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Dear Christian,

If you use anyway the MultiMarkDown engine, then you are surely aware of nvUltra, which Fletcher wants to develop with Brett’s help. Would you consider using (the not already existing) nvUltra in the future?
As far as I understand, you could use Marked2 only for rendering. I do not know, if that counts as a full external app integration.
Generally, would you mind explaining me the reasoning behind your decision not to collaborate with developers of other applications (like MultiMarkDown or Marked2) out of principle? I cannot quite follow; surely, you do not think to be the best in designing really every single functionality needed in your application. At least a few such functions might (just might) already be better implemented by other developers than you will possibly be able through in-house efforts.
So, what is the reason for refusing collaboration out of principle?

Thank you for taking the time to answer me, and, until Monday, have a nice weekend,
Adrian

sent on 12 February 2021 at 19:53–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Dear Adrian,

document editing is not the primary usage scenario for DEVONthink, its main job is document and info management. And DEVONthink supports a variety of file formats, not just Markdown. Therefore it will never be as powerful as highly specialized external editors or viewers (and using external editors together with DEVONthink is no problem at all, you don’t have to use the internal ones). Anyway, things and priorities might change in the future.

Best regards,

Christian Grunenberg, CTO

I don’t understand your morality concern with Devonthink?
I’m not a German politician, and don’t use markdown
but I do use external editors when I need extended features

edit; morality concern is some DT features may be copied/duplicated from dedicated editor apps

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Assign a shortcut to this script

-- Open in Marked 2

tell application id "DNtp"
	try
		set theRecords to selected records
		if theRecords = {} then error "Please select a Markdown record"
		
		repeat with thisRecord in theRecords
			set thisType to (type of thisRecord) as string
			if thisType is in {"markdown", "«constant ****mkdn»"} then
				set thisPath to path of thisRecord
				tell application "Marked 2"
					try
						activate
						open thisPath
					on error error_message number error_number
						if the error_number is not -128 then display alert "Marked 2" message error_message as warning
						return
					end try
				end tell
			end if
		end repeat
		
	on error error_message number error_number
		if the error_number is not -128 then display alert "DEVONthink" message error_message as warning
		return
	end try
end tell
2 Likes

I must be completely missing the point here. I have read and reread your post; I see no connection whatsoever between the first piece of information - which has absolutely nothing to do with DEVONtech as far as I am aware - and the exchange between yourself and Christian.

I am seldom completely perplexed, but you’ve done it. Anyway, I think it is important that I should answer the question you asked - something I try to do as often as possible. It’s 17.

(I’m almost just as stunned that Pete managed to simply respond with a script :D)

12 Likes

Damn, I was quite sure I had identified you!

And assign a shortcut to this script

DEVONthink doesn’t need to add integration with other apps. It’s already there.

-- Open in MultiMarkdown Composer

tell application id "DNtp"
	try
		set theRecords to selected records
		if theRecords = {} then error "Please select a Markdown record"
		
		repeat with thisRecord in theRecords
			set thisType to (type of thisRecord) as string
			if thisType is in {"markdown", "«constant ****mkdn»"} then
				set thisPath to path of thisRecord
				tell application "MultiMarkdown Composer"
					try
						activate
						open thisPath as «class furl»
					on error error_message number error_number
						if the error_number is not -128 then display alert "MultiMarkdown Composer" message error_message as warning
						return
					end try
				end tell
			end if
		end repeat
		
	on error error_message number error_number
		if the error_number is not -128 then display alert "DEVONthink" message error_message as warning
		return
	end try
end tell

+1

1 Like

I am so sorry for having produced so much confusion.
What I meant is, that I feel very guilty for my naïvety for having suggested to the DEVON team to intergrate more intimately the applications MultiMarkDown Composer and Marked2, only to see those two developers potentially damaged through DEVON’s decision to produce itself a similar editor and correponding renderer.
I have nothing against the DEVON team as such, but surely I do not want to damage (even through my naïvety and having the best intentions) two developers who who have helped me so much in the past.
My mention of German politicians, could be very well about any politicians, of any country, mutandis mutandi. I totally agree with most participants to this discussion so far, that it is way too opaque, and that it was a mistake to make it in the first place. My apologies for that.

I’ll probably be able to sleep better for the explanation :relieved:

There have been numerous requests in the past for DEVONtech to up the ante with regard to the markdown/text editor integrated in DEVONthink, not just yours. Brilliant software tends to set standards which others end up having to adhere to. So if Company A implements Feature A which appeals to a wide user base then sooner or later Companies B and C will have to implement Feature A (or some variant of it) too. If Company A has rested on its laurels, then B and C will overtake it. If, however, Company A continued to innovate, then B and C may never achieve the same level of UX in relation to the specific feature.

The MultiMarkDown Composer website seems to confirm that the maker agrees with my general assessment:

Other text editors have support for MultiMarkdown and Markdown, but none have the innovative feature set available in Composer!

I do note, however, that the last update (on the AppStore) was 2 years ago.

DEVONthink is specifically designed with a basic feature set covering areas outside its core area of expertise and to be integrated with software offering more advanced features in those areas. That that basic feature set is adapted and expanded over time is to be expected. I also think it is reasonably unlikely the decision to upgrade the integrated markdown editor was taken in February. I have no insight whatsoever into DEVONtech’s feature roadmap, but major features seem to me to be planned pretty much in advance.

So no, I’m not too worried about other companies and - based on the knowledge available to me today - have no moral qualms using DEVONtech software. DT are not trying to be a purveyor of advanced text editors; they stand alone in their own area of expertise, though. This forum is full of users integrating other software with DEVONthink; that is one of the powers of this pretty nifty bit of kit.

A quick disclaimer after all that: I don’t use DEVONthink, MMD Composer or Marked2 for editing text :man_shrugging:

1 Like

No, it’s 42

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That’s what they want you to think :smirk:

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To think I’ve spent all these years thinking 42 was the correct answer.

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You could also make the case that the other two developers are potentially damaging our business by creating applications that overlap with functionality in DEVONthink (taking the devil’s advocate stance).

However…

  1. Parallel development is as common as parallel discovery, so features often arise in several apps at the same time.
  2. We know Fletcher and Brett and there is certainly no animosity nor any desire to directly compete with them from a business standpoint. It is well known we support and sometimes even sing the praises of other developers.
  3. As pointed out by Criss, document creation and editing is not the core focus of DEVONthink. And as @Blanc pointed out, many users have requested overlapping functionality in DEVONthink.
6 Likes

If I understand you correctly — and correct me if I’m wrong — you’re suggesting that in your conversation with @cgrunenberg back in February you planted the idea of better Markdown editing and this ultimately ended in us plagiarizing the feature set of some well-known Markdown editors.

Many here will agree that we value free speech in our user forum and extremely rarely end or remove discussions even if they try to set shadow upon us. And while the accusation you make is in itself already eyebrow-raising it is technically acceptable. Is it morally acceptable or even helpful? Not so much, at least in my eyes. The opening post leaves the impression to having been written with the goal in mind to discredit our company and the moral background of the people running it.

That aside, what clearly isn’t acceptable, morally and legally, is sharing a private conversation publicly. As you seem to be based in the European Union you should know the concept of mail privacy which is also something we honor and what is even firmly enforced by the GDPR.

13 Likes

I’m with Solar-Glare; it’s 42. 17 is only the answer to what Stevie Nicks was on the edge of. But so far as this thread is concerned: Thanks for all the fish!

2 Likes

Oh dear…

In our days everyone copies everyone then either stops there, either tries to improve the idea. What’s so bad in it? It’s classic technical evolution…

DEVONthink is not the bad guy for offering features that the users have asked for.

Take a look at everything that’s happening in the Notes-app world right now…

Roam Research, Notion, NotePlan, Obsidian, Bear, etc… : they all revolve around the same set of features. Markdown, backlinks, references, graphs, and so on. And by trying to (almost always) bring something new to the game, it benefits the users :slight_smile:

7 Likes

@eboehnisch
Absolutely right and well said !

4 Likes

@adrian-f, you are aware that the MultiMarkdown engine is open-sourced and released under the MIT License, right?

7 Likes

Hello @eboehnisch
I am indeed very much familiar with GDPR.
I am also aware that the German Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe very much accepts as valid proofs, documents not meant initially for the public domain, like private e-mails.
So what is «acceptable, morally and legally» (as you put it) involves surely a longer discussion, even if we agree more specifically on Germany legality, and not merely on EC laws in general. What moral notions we should apply, however, attempting to come to some sort of mutual understanding, might prove even more difficult.
Talking about morality, it might be worth mentioning what @Bernardo_V had to say:

(@Bernardo_V 's final word in his contribution suggests to me some self-rightous ill-temper. I am not sure about that, however, and I’d be happy to be corrected by @Bernardo_V . This merely as an aside.)
In any case, (and now I come back to @eboehnisch contribution) what is legal, is not necessarily also decent, or moral.
As @christ33 aptly observed:

I beg to differ, @christ33 : I do not think at all that this has to do merely with technology:

  • many people stole and even killed each other at all times (obviously not only for technological gadgets, like iPhones), when possible punishments from the outside (like going to jail, or being shot, or tortured) were not probable outcomes in their minds;
  • only a minority refrained from such deeds fearing punishments from the inside (like shame).
    Where exactly @christ33 sees an «evolution», eludes me. Personally, I see total stagnation.

I do not know, if members of this forum agree with my proposal that decent, or moral people are those who fear punishments from the inside.

Precisely because no punishments from the outside were to be feared during the Jugoslav war, or during the genocide of Tutsis in Rwanda, many individuals turned against their neighbours, and even killed them in sadistic ways. Likewise, French citizens turned over to German occupiers some of their own neighbours for personal advantage (material or otherwise).

The most interesting peculiarity of a whole (usually ethnic) group commiting crimes against another group is their conviction, that they are under attack, and that they have merely to defend themselves. The white minority in South Africa in the time of apartheid felt that they are under permanent siege. The best organised, nation-wide pogrom in Nazi Germany, «Reichskristallnacht», was organised under the motto: «Germans, defend yourselves!» («Deutsche, verteidigt Euch!»).
In the same vein @eboehnisch said in his contibution:

(my own highlighting)
Assigning a crime (or the intention of committing one) to the opponent, frees one from the beginnning of any eventual, later conscience pangs. When one merely «defends» onself, shame is totally inappropriate.

(Just to preempt any misunderstanding in connection to my last snippet written by @eboehnisch :

I do not think at all that the magnitude of any of the aggressions mentioned above, and the denials of any guilt which go with them, are comparable at all. I put all these human interractions together, because they function similarly, in the same way in which a mouse and an elephant are both mammals.)

Of course, @christ33

(«else», I would add).
But, in the end, everyone is responsible for oneself, whether during the Jugoslav war, during the NS time, during the Soviet time and after (if there is any «after» in one’s lifetime).
Likewise, everybody is responsible for oneself also in our present times, also when it comes to using somebody’s else’s ideas without mentioning the original authors (of MultiMarkdown and Marked2 in our present case). (See also my mention in my initial text of yet another plagiarism of a PhD thesis «allegedly» written by yet another German minister. That mention of mine has been pretty much misunderstood, as the context was too obscure, most probably.)
So @christ33 , stealing today, cannot be morally justified by the fact that it is very common.
(Also paedophilia hs been quite common in the '70ies in the whole First World, not only in the Catholic Church; it was in no way «more decent» or «more moral» then, than now, merely because then it was not shunned upon, and/or legally punished, as it seems to happen these days in Cologne by the Vatican itself.)

So let us get one thing clear first: what exactly was plagiarized here, according to your understanding?

2 Likes