redesign the UI

I agree… but I don’t see this as only packaging. I see things in Papers that I’d pay a ton of money to see in DTP for efficiency’s sake.

  • Tabs are fantastic – especially if I could turn those tabs into separate DTP Windows and back again.
  • The All/Flagged/Unread | All/Articles/Reviews/Editorials/Commentaries tag button things would be incredible for quickly filtering user-defined tags.
  • “iLife” smart groups and groups, especially if nestable, could be a rapid and powerful way for building dynamic hierarchies.
  • The right column “Delicious Library”-esque panel view could augment the pop-up “Get Info” panel in a more attractive and more easily-arranged way (note also their implementation of keywords – sexxxy)
  • Support for easy and attractive article ratings á la iTunes (with a role in the AI?) would be a very easy, consistent way to indicate quality (or anything else, on a six-point scale).
  • Note the toolbar at the bottom of the center pane. I don’t like it there, but it provides access to all of the per-format buttons (like editing buttons for RTF, zooming/scaling for PDF, etc) for each document rather than having them accessible only when you open the document in a new window in DEVONthink Pro. I hope that makes sense.

And so on – that’s after just a few minutes of playing around with Papers.

I’m easily offended – I’ll become angry or upset very quickly, especially when someone criticizes my work. So I want to make clear that I’m not complaining about DEVONthink Pro. It’s a tremendous application, and I’m not even remotely tempted to switch.

But if DEVONthink Pro adopted some of these UI elements (and deeper DB elements, like the keywords/tagging I’ve been ranting about for a few months), it’d be better than sex. Well, most sex.

You are turned on very easily :wink:

Well stated. I agree.

I think we’ll see much of what we “crave” in the 2.x release later this year, if history is an indication.

Of course, an industrious individual with graphic or theming experience could hack the current UI to make it more current, if they so chose.

As many have noted, the package should not be merely eye candy but should provide an environment that makes the user feel comfortable, using it should reinforce the purchase decision, and it should be user friendly as well as provide some visual wow-factor.

It’s the reason most of us own Macs instead of much cheaper PCs, IMO.

Just to add my .01 cent (adjusted for inflation). I love DT Pro and have no plans of switching to anything else. Yes it has some problems that could use work, yes everything is always apparently late (in some cases, years late, such as the perpetually forthcoming DT Pro 2.0), but I got the programs for what they do now. If something really spectacular comes along before DT Pro 2.0, I may switch, but I find it unlikely. Nearly all the “organizers” that exist for the Mac are all doing the same thing in slightly different ways, and can’t match the power of DT Pro.

Having said that, taking that exact specific app which was just mentioned, Journlr doesn’t really do anything that incredible. BUT, the interface is MUCH less dated, provides hooks to Tiger to use the familiar Media panes to import/index material from iLife and Aperture and generally it FEELS LIKE a modern app.

DT Pro really doesn’t. It looks more at home in the days of Jaguar.

Although it’s certainly nothing that is going to cause me to change over to anything else, you might consider hiring a good graphic/UI designer to overhaul the DT series. If my needs were more limited and I just popped open DT Pro and then looked at the eye candy of the latest wave of organizers for the Mac, well… I probably would pick something else.

You may be doing yourselves a disservice and alienating potential new converts by keeping the overall look and feel stuck in 2002.

-EPS-

(1) I dont think UI is so much an up-to-date/not-up-to-date issue. Different people prefer different UI for good reasons. I really hope, that not every App tries to look and feel like Delicious-Generation-Apps or like the new iTunes. I must admit, I rather like the DEVONthink UI. I would perhaps clean up the menus a bit.

(2) Tabs make perfekt sense in a webbrowser - Tabs dont make much sense in an outliner. You would prefer new windows in an outliner, because you want to see your file in relation to the hierarchy. So I’m against Tabs in DEVONthink.

If I would be the developer of DEVONthink, I would think about what features I could leave out, not of what I could add…

BTW, one of my favourite UI is Mellel - yes its “ugly”, but its easy to focus on the stuff you write in this UI. So this is what makes it a very good UI.

Hi Louise, I also use Mellel a lot, and I value its robust set of features (footnotes, note streams, bookends support) in comparison to word.

Since I looked at scrivener (at literatureandlatte.com), I have fallen for the possibilities of an improved ui. I am especially fond of the “split” layout, where it is even possible to look at several documents at once in the upper pane (a virtual corkboard" where you see your file’s synopsis) and edit a document in the lower pane, for example. This way, writing is easier for me, because I am thinking about structure, not about formatting.

So I agree with you that there should be better solutions to the ui problem than tabs. This was just the first thing we came up with - but probably, someone designs something which no one could have anticipated, and which looks and works just great…

Well let me speak up for tabs, I like them. I far prefer having a single window with tabs then having numerous windows for the same database. The tab names will indicate what is there for you and a simple control>tab would enable you to flip through things easily. Of course, the option should still be there to have something open in its own window.

I too like Scrivener, a very very well conceived program. Not sure how to implement some of it in Mellel - they are 2 quite different programs for different purposes.

I don’t think many people want just a glossy coating to DEVONthink. Rather, they want UI changes that’ll improve usability. There’s a reason that Delicious Library is selling like hotcakes: it’s an extremely usable application that manages to cram a lot of features into a decent-looking GUI. DL is a pretty awesome application.

There are several problems with your logic. For one, DT is barely an outliner. B-A-R-E-L-Y. The second is that you assume the presence of tabs precludes the ability to see a file in relation to a hierarchy – it doesn’t. The third is that you assume everyone uses DT the way you do – we apparently don’t (DT primarily as an outliner? wtf?).

Then thank $DEITY for not making you the DEVONthink developer. DTP is the king of the jungle for a reason – its extreme richness of features on every level. If you subtracted features, you’d quickly find peasants marching on your castle with torches and pitchforks. And I’d be the one in the front with the noose and bar of soap.

Mellel is a word processor. Mellel is not an information manager. Mellel’s UI can in no way deal with the range of features that DEVONthink possesses. If you want to go the classic Mac route and make an application whose advanced functionality is available only through AppleScript (Quicktime Player is a remaining example of this braindead approach), go right ahead. But again, I’ll be the one with the noose.

If you don’t want features like tabs, then don’t use them. Safari’s made them completely optional for a couple years now, so I don’t see why DEVONthink couldn’t do the same. Don’t like them? Then they won’t clutter your interface. If people suggest extra toolbars, well, you can turn off the toolbars in Photoshop and Word with a click of the button (and have been able to for years and years now). If you don’t like the 3-pane+information view that I suggested above, then don’t click the little Aqua button that turns it on. Don’t like rating your articles from 0-5 stars? Then don’t view that column. Personally, I always have the “Created on” and “Modified on” columns hidden.

I’m not saying that, if this stuff were to be implemented in DT, it should all be mandatory. Rather, I’m saying what is useful to me. It could all be turned on and off easily. What I can’t understand is why people are actively arguing against optional components to a program. If you don’t like it, don’t use it. If you would prefer that the developers work on some other feature, then great! Mention that tabs should be less of a priority than, uh, DEVONOS, the new operating system composed entirely of DEVON programs. Or whatever it is that you would prefer to improvements in usability, function, and versatility.

Not to pick too fine a point, but I recently abandoned DL, after 2 years of use, because it was too slow and limited in its options. I shifted to the Bruji “pedia” apps: Bookpedia, CDpedia, DVDpedia, and now would never go back. In the case of DL, the developer has worked mainly on eye-candy and not enough on functional improvement. So, I agree with your general point, that UI alone is not enough. But the example you chose is exactly that, fancy UI and no smarts inside.

I agree that DL is a bad example, but I didn’t bring it up… Louise did. For what it’s worth: I think Will Shipley is a cock, I hate eyecandy, and I far prefer the iTunes-esque interface of BookPedia to the interface of DL. I’m not trying to make DTP look like DL. I’m trying to make it look like DTP + an option for tabs + extra view options. That’s all.

Another UI issue came up to me while I was playing around with Scrivener: When you click on another document and go back again in this app, you do not lose your scrolling position. I think this would be useful for DT as well…
Mark

My 2 cents:
I’m also evaluating Scrivener and I must admit that the GUI is very interesting and has some useful features: take a look, for example to the inspector panel: there you can view, edit etc. notes, keywords and references/links while you are reading the text (while in DT the “Comment” in not so useful for comments/notes/keywords a bit more elaborated or longer). About keyword another useful features is the Keyword panel in which you can edit/group etc. your keyword. The UI of the keyword panel is also very nice (in dashboard style…)
Another very useful feature is the possibility to have the text editor split in two horizontal subpanels: that is very useful to copy/paste quotations snippets etc.

I must admit that, even though Devon has no rivals in data-managing, I was tempted to switch to Scrivener at least for some kind of work…as an academic in humanities it’s very important for me to be able to take notes, tag etc. a large amount of quotations and to see the text and my notes at the same time…
what do you think? javascript:emoticon(‘:D’)

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Nestor,
I’m definitely with you on this. Scrivener is more specifically a writer’s app while DT is not, but Scrivener is doing some data-management stuff that beats DT, and you have pointed them out. The info window needs to be integrated better in DT and made fully functional (for links, etc).

We can all cry for our feature requests.

  1. Spotlight searching
  2. Tabs and Better UI in general
  3. Solid easy to use features w/o scripting
  4. Simplicity over confusion
  5. Add your hot topic item here :slight_smile:

DEVONThink is a great program. However as with many great programs talented developers put in tons of features that most users can never access due to time, learning curve, etc. Features are useless unless users are able to access those features easily and in an intuitive way.

I can’t say Bill D. makes this issue any easier to deal with. Bill is a very talented user (a SuperUser for sure) with the time and interest to uncover all of the hidden features of DEVONThink. With Bill constantly defending HIS way of using DEVONThink there will always be a devoted voice keeping DEVONThink pretty much the way it is. After all, pretty much anything is already possible in DEVONThink (for Bill). Hopefully Bill will accept my apology in advance for taking shots at him here.

One of the things that worries me about DEVONThink’s long-term success is the reticence to support Spotlight and other Apple core technologies and user interface design directions.

Features alone don’t make products. Useable, solid, and intuitive features make products. Developers are often poor UI designers as well. Developers in control of product direction can become very entrenched in THEIR way of doing things and run a product right into the ground. It’s often very difficult for developers and superusers to maintain touch with the needs of the average user. If DEVONTechnologies focused on simplicity, ease of use, great design, and tight integration with Apple core technologies, I would be less worried.

I hope to see DEVONThink continue to mature and I’d love to see the program lead the market for many years to come. I think Bill D. puts a lot of his heart and soul into the forums, the product, and helping users. However, for this program to really move forward I think the current entrenchment surrounding design strategy and development needs to grow and begin becoming user focused instead of remaining feature focused.

b.3,

I have just purchased DT Pro Office and DevonAgent – with a mixture of hope and more than a few misgivings. You have succinctly encapsulated both.

I agree that there is more than a whiff of entrenched behaviour about the Devon project which reminds me of classic political and military intelligence failures: reinforcing expectations, ignoring information which runs counter to those expectations, and assuming that no-one else has noticed.

That’s not to say DT is a bad product–it’s not, otherwise I wouldn’t have bought it (DevonAgent, though, is another story). However, like any other product, DT has a shelf life and the competition is growing.

I’ll use DT for as long as it takes, but even now I’m ready to jump ship as soon as the right replacement comes along. (BTW, I use Scrivener daily and it is a truly astounding product, easily a DT killer if Keith Blount wanted to take it that way; also watch Phil Dow of Journler fame, who is producing a new product called Lex.)

Thanks for the post. I’d been meaning to do something along those lines, but you did it earlier and better.

IW

Since I have DTPro, DTAgent, and Scrivener all running at this very moment, I really have to challenge the characterization of Scrivener as a DT-killer.

It’s not. Compared to DT, its tools for handling data are pitiful, and Keith has made it pretty clear that he does not plan significant database-style enhancements.

Conversely, compared to Scrivener, DT’s tools for handling text are pitiful. Fine for notetaking, but terrible for serious writing.

I don’t actually like Swiss Army knife, do everything tools. That’s how you get bloatware that doesn’t do anything well. Scrivener succeeds because it keeps that warning firmly in mind. DT will fail when it begins to forget that.

Katherine

I think DEVONagent rocks, but to each his own. Besides the current reliance on Safari’s bookmarks and the no homepage thing, DA’s searching abilities and plugins and scanners and integration with DT make it an amazingly great internet helper.

Still, to each his own.

Hi, b.3. No offense taken. I am a very heavy database user. I’m not one of the developers. But in fact we do listen to user comments and there are plans for a future major upgrade that will take into account a great many issues raised by users.

The current database structure and it’s backward compatibility with OS X 10.3.9 make Spotlight indexing rather impractical. Spotlight cannot index the text-based content of the ‘body’ of the current database. Of course, Spotlight can and does index the external files associated with Index-capture of Finder files, but that’s not very useful integration with the database itself. Those limitations will disappear in the future, with a revised database structure.

The current strengths of the database design, including scalability, speed, management of a variety of file types and AI assistance will be maintained and extended. The large scripting dictionary, which allows power users to customize many routines for their own needs, will be retained as well. The power and speed of search queries will be extended (take a look at the query operators in DEVONagent as an example).

The developers are considering useful approaches to user features such as tagging, and to annotation of documents regardless of the file type.

Attention is being given to making the introduction to powerful information management as painless and intuitive as possible, especially for new users. This focus will also extend to the overviews and feature illustrations in the DEVONacademy.

But the DEVONthink applications will not be Yojimbo, Papers, Yep or EagleFiler. The focus of DEVONtechnologies is to make their applications the most powerful and useful information management applications in the Mac marketplace. User comments and criticisms are welcomed.

As a heavy user of my databases, I’m looking forward to the future major upgrade myself.

But in my role in support services I often suggest how various user problems or questions can be addressed in the current applications. Precisely because DT Pro is a deep and rich application, when I need to so something for which there’s not an immediately obvious approach, I’ll try to figure out a workaround or kludge to accomplish my objective – and so I’ll often respond to a user’s question with an illustration of how I was able to do something similar. I’ll often take a brute force approach, using just the currently available commands in the menu or contextual menu options.

Example. A user had created a database by Indexing files from the Finder. Now he wants to convert that database to an Imported (self-contained) database. So I suggested that he simply select and export as files and folders the entire content of the database. Then create a new, empty database and Import all of the exported material into it. That works. That’s a semi-manual procedure and can be completed in just a few minutes.

Christian Grunenberg, the CTO of DEVONtechnologies, then gave an even better response, which we should post among useful script examples. Christian responded with a script that will do the job automatically, requiring the user only to invoke the script. That will also take a little while, but the user is freed to do something else while the script is doing its magic.

Example: Long ago, I found it irritating that, when I’m viewing a long document and decide to click on the See Also button to look at possibly related documents, I lose my scrolling position on returning to the original document. I found a kludge, which is to open two views of the document and perform the See Also routine on a second view of the document. A bit awkward, but it works. A better solution will be in a future version of the application, perhaps using tabbed documents.

When I make a suggestion like that, I’m not denying that losing the scrolling position is a major irritation and there should be a better way. I’m just suggesting that some existing tools exist to mitigate the irritation in the short term. :slight_smile:

Can I make “attached” notes and comments about a document I’m reading, possibly including hyperlinks to other documents or notes, without messing up the original document and regardless of the file type of the original document? Sure. I’ve got a kludge to do just that. I expect a future upgrade will provide a more elegant solution, but I don’t have to wait. And those notes and comments will still be available and useful even after the more elegant solution emerges.

I did a lot of bench research years ago, including the early days of molecular biology. For many research needs, there was no pre-existing lab equipment available to order from a catalog. One often had to design and build equipment from readily available materials at a local hardware store, grocery store and electrical hobby shop. Want to do electrophoresis and thin film chromatography? Accurately calculate the density of the protein coat of a bacteriophage? Sure. Use what’s lying around or build it. Successful kludges were often a major part of the fun of doing research, and often required dropping preconceptions and figuring out what could be done with available tools and materials. I think that will always be a characteristic of interesting research. Sure, some of the methodologies we developed are now part of the standard literature, and one can order off the shelf equipment we had to design and build. But there will always remain a ‘bleeding edge’ where one has to use kludges, new and sometimes awkward ways of using what’s available…

DEVONthink Pro can and will see major improvements. But what I like about it is that it’s rich enough that I can do things with it that I can’t do with other software. Can all the possible ways to do things be documented? No, I’ve been amazed by the wide range of things users do with their databases. The online Help and the user documentation describe the available features and commands. DEVONacademy pages – sample databases, tutorials and movies – were created to illustrate uses of some of those features and commands.

But a law office will use DEVONthink Pro Office quite differently than will a journalist, a medical researcher or a writer of novels. What they share in common is the need to manage document collections and mine and analyze information.

I agree with your statement about the ‘do everything’ program. I used to wish for this but, like you, I have come to feel this might not be the best solution. I like having programs that do what they do incredibly well. I also use Scrivener and DT Pro (not Dt Agent so much). I’m not sure I’d use the word pitiful for Scr. in any regard, but I agree that DT’s writing tools are pretty lame. I tried for a long while to make it work, but was pretty frustrated with the results. Enter Scrivener, and my problem was solved. I have a powerful data-management program and a killer writing program working nicely together.

Sure, DT could use some UI improvements, and I’ll bet Dt 2.0 (which I do hope actually will exist someday) will address some of those issues. It would seem logical that the developers wouldn’t make huge UI changes to 1.X versions if they have 2.0 coming out anytime soon.

Until then, DT Pro is the best at what does. And maybe I’ve been using it so long that I’m used to the way it works, so I don’t find myself wishing it to be all that different.

Alexandria

Katherine,

I agree that Scrivener is not a DT-killer as it is. My point was that, like other applications out there, it has the potential to be just that. It is unlikely to happen because, as I think all Scrivener users know, Keith has firmly put a limit on further development at this stage. (By the way, like Alex, I don’t think there is anything ‘pitiful’ about Scrivener: it does what it says it will do, and does it superbly.)

I hope there is no misunderstanding about my comments on DT: it is clearly the best there is at the moment for serious research and I want to see it develop, but like others I am concerned about the future, that’s all.

IW