Request for a more appealing writing environment

What exactly is “basic formatting”?
Also, I’d rather advocate “one tool, one purpose”. As it is, DT already contains tons of functions, most users probably only use a fraction of. Making it a fully fledged writing environment would make it even more complicated. It’s perfectly possible to open documents stored in DT in the appropriate program.
As a side note: MD is, like HTML, about structure, not representation. A 2inch margin is representation and can be defined in the CSS that’s used to render the MD. As can be the font style and size, colors etc.

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Your points are spot on. I for one probably could not afford (or want) a do-it-all tool like being advocated, especially if there was a call to do markdown formatting [sic]! And would probably bankrupt DEVONtechnologies to compete against Office 365!

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Such as bullet points / block code / etc indentation. Basic markdown support would make markdown notes more pleasant to create. Not after all in one as stated in my reply as don’t think it’s worth DT to invest their time on full text editor. Rather them spend time in features thus using iA Writer for in depth writing.

If you mean “intendation for unordered lists and code blocks”, this can be (as I said before, btw) with CSS. Which is, also btw, generally the tool to determine the characteristics of rendering MD. As you can see in my screenshot, the unordered list is indented.


After modifying the CSS, the sample looks like this:

As you can see, the code block is indented now and has a light grey background.

So apparently, DT already does support “basic formatting”. Albeit maybe not exactly in the way you envisage. But: using CSS is a lot more portable since you can (or should be able to) tell any other MD editor to use the same CSS as DT. And since CSS supports all attributes, it is a lot more flexibel for rendering than simply supporting “margins for lists and code blocks”.

I know what CSS is :innocent:

When writing, it’ll be good to have list/blocks etc auto indented/another bullet created when next line is created instead of having to use - or TAB for each line.

Anyway, it’s ok. Let’s move on; think most understand my request. Cheers.

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[Post on the inability to have shortcuts for Styles and Bullets edited because it was long and wrong and may be confusing…]

For details of how to do it properly, please see BlueFrog’s post lower down this thread and @pete31’s thread here How to use RTF lists and styles shortcut

The short answer is: the list icon in the Editing bar isn’t enough: you need to have the Formatting Bar visible where the same icon will bring up a list of default list elements (and allow shortcuts).

Apologies for the confusion.

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Here, here. “Small powerful tools, loosely joined.”

DT’s power in in organization, cross-referencing, cataloging, etc. IMO it is better to leave long-form writing to tools that specialize in that, like Scrivener, Multimarkdown Composer, Byword, Typora, etc. (It is helpful to allow short form text and notes to be created directly in DT.) Rendering can be left to the external editors, or a specialized rendering engine like Marked 2 (or maybe even Pandoc, though that’s getting a bit geeky.)

This kind of usage does mean paying attention in DT to the ability to round-trip or import / export content. Adding features to allow use of an external editor and an external previewer for Markdown text would be nice additions to a future version.

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I’ve been using DEVONthink all day for close to 15 years. (Yes, that qualifies my opinion as irrelevant.) I’ve never had issues working across various writing apps and DEVONthink. I’ve also never wanted the company to invest in replicating editor features available in other apps. DEVONthink is useful because it works well with other apps, not because it tries to reproduce what other apps do (and often do better).

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:+1:

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I write long-form Markdown in DEVONthink all the time and it’s rendering via MultiMsrkdown v6 works very nicely.

The power of a tool is often in the hands of the craftsman. Just look at Ansel Adams lugging 8x10 plates and simple large format cameras through the Sierras and see the unequaled results he produced :slight_smile:

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Hey everyone, thanks all for your comments. I think this thread got a bit off topic as I was only suggesting some moderate refinements to DT and not the addition of a full-featured word processing engine.

That said, one point made about how DT handles bullets and lists reminds me of another cause of angst I have when writing. Why not have bullets work fluidly like the way Notes.app implements them? Type a dash and the next line is also dashed until the user hits enter twice — such an elegant way to create lists with virtually no friction for the writer!

A few minor tweaks to the UI (such as padding around the documents), improved bullets and a few others are all that’s needed. I never suggested DT should compete with Word, Pages or Scrivener, yet I DO want DT to be a more inviting and attractive as a place to write drafts.

This is something I give a lot of thought to in the context of all tools and technology. Does an improvement in tools lead to a better outcome? Do I take better pictures with my high-tech Canon camera than Ansel Adams took with his plates? No, of course not! Having a nice writing environment won’t make me into a J.R.R. Tolkien either but since I do use a computer and it’s capable of being customized into many different types of tools it would be nice to have those tools look nice and be inspiring.

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Just to be clear, you can have automatic bullets in DT3 RTF files (which I think is what you’re after):

Opt-tab on an empty line will start a new list with as the header, which will then behave as a fully compliant list.[^1] But there’s no way to start a numbered list, or to just • or any other leading element without using that awful list dialogue.

[^1] This works in every standard RTF editor based on Apple’s TextEdit engine, as far as I know (in Scrivener, too). The only exception I’m aware of is Tinderbox, which hard codes opt-tab to move between panes — and it doesn’t give you a menu item so you could choose a more sensible shortcut, either, which is irritating. These are only niggles in otherwise excellent programs…

But there’s no way to start a numbered list, or to just • or any other leading element without using that awful list dialogue.

Hmm…

:wink:

Do note the list dropdown is in the Format > Format Bar now. You should check the dropdown to ensure the hotkey has been registered.
image

BLUEFROG, I’m curious as to why DT requires us to use a keyboard command at all? Again, I go back to Notes.app as an example of a fluid and frictionless way to handle lists. It requires no memorization of keyboard commands, no interruption in a train of thought, simply type a dash (or whatever) to immediately conjure up a list and keep typing. It’s so natural and simple.

If I understood the reason you consider a keyboard command to be superior to what Apple does then perhaps I would warm up to the idea.

Also, just an aside, the list dialog could be made a bit less awful if it remembered the last selection instead of reselecting your favorite list type each and every time you opened it. :grinning:

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OK you were faster … How to use RTF lists and styles via Shortcut

Shot on iPhone 4 in Yosemite Valley, straight from the camera

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Beautiful, imagine what he could have done with an iPhone.

Hi Jim

Thanks for the correction!

I was using the List icon on what I now discover is called the Editing Bar, not the Formatting Bar, which I didn’t have displayed. The Editing Bar icon only brings up the Edit List dialogue.

Unfortunately, the same icon has two different results, depending on which toolbar it’s in, and the main format menu only brings up the (still awful) dialogue. I should have looked further…

Cheers

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I think you’re misunderstanding Varen’s request a bit here. You’re talking about the rendered view of a Markdown document, what DT calls Preview. I take Varen to be talking about a similar kind of formatting taking place in what DT calls Source mode and what is known in plain text editors as syntax highlighting. Take a look at two views of a document in Obsidian:

The first is the rendered view:

And then here is the source view:

Compare that source view with the source view in Devonthink:

I understand I can tweak the CSS for the rendered view, but it would be nice to have similar options for the source view, or at least better defaults.

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@laudunum - Amen, you illustrated my point better than I did. Thanks!

Just one note is that I feel this should be extended to all types of documents in DT including RTF, notes, plain text and markdown.