3 Pane view in DT3

The script is not stable, but it won’t change any element of the database. I am withdrawing the post.

My apology.

Some more thoughts:

The old situation with two left-side panes (the old database-selecting side-bar, left pane of the old 3pv) needed an overhaul. The new sidebar (or let me call it new left-pane, NLP) combines and extends those two left-side panes. It frees screen estate wasted by the old sidebar, it removes the old artificial barrier between databases and folders, at least on a representational-logical level.

I can imagine some future scenario (DT4 or 5) in which users don’t need to care about databases any longer. Everything’s just goes into DT and DT takes care of how information and files are stored. You could separate you information via various group hierarchies and that’s it. Maybe, you could logically compartmentalize your DT for better See-also AI results, but then I’m also wondering whether all the changes and advances in AI in recent fifteen years will be incorporated into DT in some way. But then, what do I know.

This new 3pv and its NLP have a few drawbacks, and the key points have been touched on in this and other debates, many also in beta-stage discussions:

  • Multi-select
  • Keyboard navigation
  • Delta in context-menu and mouse actions on folders in NLP and new center pane
  • Vertical orientation
  • Focus

I’m focussing on the latter two here.

Focus

NLP is excellent to control your entire DT instance. It’s all there, right at your fingertips, in your sight, no need to toggle around, switch windows, using every pixel of the available screen estate. Favs, Inboxes, Tags, Open Databases, Used Databases, Intelligent Groups, Intelligent Rules. Super dense, good looking, excellent. You can even add the presumably more rarely used NLP section Reading List. Let alone Import and Extras, which probably could have been stuffed into a visually less prominent menu command as well.

But eventually, you would want to work on your current project X in B/A/X (letters representing database and folders structure). You want to focus on that project, its folder and subfolders in DT and not much else. With NLP, you would still Favs, Inboxes, Tags - at least their headers in NLP -, and then eventually the Open Databases section with your database B (and other databases), folder A (and B, C, D, E, F, G), and folder X (next to its folder siblings A, B, C, D, E, F….). Plus Used Databases, Intelligent Groups, Intelligent Rules. Well, our brains can work around and blind out that - in that context - informational noise, but it always takes a few brain cpu circles.

(Vertical) orientation

When you look into your Mail inbox, you know where your folders are, at least the top ones (Inbox, VIP, Marked, Drafts, etc.). The lower you go in Mail’s left-pane mailbox tree, the less is a folder vertically fixed, i.e. you need to figure out which sections are opened, which parent/grandaunt/sibling/etc folders are opened, and where in that folder structure that „mailinglists/whatever“ folder is you’re looking for. UI/UX guys might have an expression for that, but ignorant thereof, let me call it vertical orientation.

Now, the vast number of folders in our individual DT setups substantially exacerbates that vertical orientation problem. Take that Project X mentioned above. It requires information stored in C/G/P, C/G/F, C/B/H/D, F/I/D/K/L, F/B/W/A. And you’ve also looked into a dozen of other folders before settling on the ones mentioned.

DT3’s NLP creates the opportunity to find yourself in an unmitigated scroll-orient-scroll-orient-scroll-orient scenario. You can open C/G/P, C/G/F, C/B/H/D, F/I/D/K/L, F/B/W/A, C/G/P, C/G/F, C/B/H/D, F/I/D/K/L, F/B/W/A, surrounded by their myriads of parent/grandaunt/grandgrandfather/sibling folders in a single windows, all accessible from NLP with single clicks, only interrupted by tons of scroll-orient-scroll-orient-scroll-orients.

Existing features

DT2 provided some mitigation to that out of the box: you could only see the folder structure of one database in the OLP. (Can you imagine: I had to search for screenshots of DT2 because I wasn’t sure whether I remembered correctly; I’ve used DT3 since the very early stages of the beta) But that was only a slight mitigation, because C/G/P, C/G/F, C/B/H/D, C/G/P, C/G/F, C/B/H/D still provide enough opportunity to get lost in a sea of endless surrounding folders. And I frequently did.

DT offers a few ways to keep things together and ease access to them, many established, some new:

  • Replicate folders (works only within a database, alas)
  • Favorites (new with DT3): I use them very often these days and contain those folders I access currently and frequently; getting to the folder position in the DB could be easier though
  • Windows: I do use new windows in DT3 much more often than in DT2, as it allows me to switch contexts (databases, folders) instantly via keyboard
  • History smart group: showing recently opened files. But doesn’t show folders.
  • History Back/Forward navigation (new with DT3): there are actually two history navigations
  • Go-To command

There is no clear winner what’s best here, so I’m using different techniques.

The focus and orientation problems are inherent in the software segment of DT, independent of whether we talk about DT2 or DT3. DT3’s NLP highlights and slightly increases the challenge of focusing and (vertical) orientation in large and complex DT setups. I assume Devontechnologies will address the orientation and focus problem in a more coherent way at some point. The combination of old sidebar+OLP would be an insufficient solution, though, and not where the puck should be going. Multi-select, keyboard navigation, closing the gap to center-view context menus should be relatvely low hanging fruits.

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Thanks for the analysis!

I think that’s the main intention of sidebar, and I also agree with you that …

This is the real deal - it seems very likely the long term vision of DT

The is the current major short-coming of the sidebar. I think that’s why some users are asking for tab-windows and/or bringing back the 3PV. DT need to work on a more effective method in the sidebar to let those multi-task, multi-databases users to instantly switching back/forth for “continuation” of the workflow. Hunting/reconstructing the previous groups/view each time in previously active databases by selecting the groups again from sidebar can be painful. For example, a user conducts a search in DB1, switch to DB2 for some multi-steps work, when they want to switch back to DB1, they can’t retain the search list that was constructed previously. Currently, the only mitigation is to open multiple main windows for different database. However, I suspect that most users prefer to focus on one main window.

On a positive side, I believe that DT is listening and probably is now working on some clever change in sidebar.

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As suggested I turned on the option “just show documents” to get nearer the old 3pane view.
But using this option makes my favorite folders unusable because I cannot address their subfolders anymore.

Hmmm, good analysis, as for:

I really hope not. I’ve got 13 active databases and 8 archive ones, with sizes varying between 23 MB (Links only) and 110 GB (non-fiction/science literature). I can’t sync everything, nor do I want to. Different databases make sense.

Which, thinking (and writing) some more about it, is my main gripe with the lack of the 3PV. Like ngan also said, it’s context switching that’s important. When I’m in my work database, I prepare my work by expanding the necessary folders/groups. When I look in another database (e.g., scientific literature), it’s like going into another room (metaphorically: the library). I come back to the work database and it’s as I’ve left it. It makes sense. Not only distinguishing between folders/groups (vertical bar) and files (top) and actual content (bottom), but the whole setup.

So, yeah, so far I haven’t seen anything that is as useful as what DT2 had. And the comments by some people from DT are rather discouraging (bad sign to try to convince that a missing feature is a good thing, and especially so by pointing out that others don’t need it). It’s like not wanting to understand the perspective of their diverse user base and being defensive and trying to protect design decisions.

I don’t want to argue with support, I want something that works. And losing something that worked is worse than never having had it. But hey, so far DT’s surprises were mostly positive, still hoping for the best.

4 Likes

Perhaps there are really only two changes need to restore most of what 3PV or even tab database windows users need:

(1) An option to change the behavior when the user clicks on the database on the sidebar (the top-level database name only). Std option (option disabled) is what DT3 is currently presenting. With the option, clicking on the database will restore the last setup in that specific database. This option will both allow users to continue the workflow with min disruption and let a single-window DT3 behaves as a tabbed database window.

(2) Re the above quote on documents only list. A hidden preference to turn on/off the view is perhaps too broad-based. Just an idea: instead of using a hidden-preference, add an “all-documents- in-group list view”. So users can flip between displaying the normal subgroups and items under the current group and displaying all documents in the current group by changing the default view. Note: in a sense, it’s almost like creating a smart group instantly with predicates being “any documents” in the group.

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Together with the planned change in keyboard navigation and keyboard-enabled pane switching, I think it may resolve most of what the DT2’s 3PV and tabbed windows users needs while retaining the design integrity of DT3’s side panel.

PS. (1) I understand that adding an “all-documents- in-group list view” in addition to the standard “icons/list/columns/cover flow” is unorthodox in Mac/Finder UI. But DT has never been strictly bounded by normal practices …
(2) DT may have to prioritise resources to bug-fixed, compatibility to new MacOS and iOS, and the upgrade cycle of diff apps. However, as long as the developers are willing to show their intention on refining the sidebar and a more flexible document-only vs groups and document view (if my interpretation is appropriate), the DT2 users may be able to invest more time in appreciating all the very useful enhancements in DT3!

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Some very thoughtful responses here, thank you all. In my use so far, a number of drawbacks have manifested using the new Navigation pane.

  1. No keyboard navigation – yes I know that the developers are planning to introduce this, which is massively appreciated. I hope that it comes sooner rather than later.

  2. The inability of DT3 to retain individual database views when navigating between databases with the cursor is a serious draw back. I am aware that the new back/forward button/commands can be used, but when using more than two databases at a time, this quickly becomes unwieldy.

  3. If I use Standard view, with Show Only Documents enabled, I come close to the original 3PV. However, as soon as I need to navigate to another database, not only do I lose my place in the first database, I have to either scroll down the Navigation pane or collapse the open database, depending on how many groups I have opened. Trivial on the face of it, and perhaps not a problem for those working on large monitors, but I typically am working with a 13" screen. I find myself constantly scrolling. This also brings me back to the flaws in 2).

  4. If I use List view, with Show Only Documents disabled, I come very close to 3PV. However, when I click on a group I see nothing in the Preview pane. I have to expand the group in the List View. Or I can navigate only using the Navigation pane, which brings me back to issues 2) and 3). If I use List View with Show Only Documents enabled, we are closer again. I navigate using the sidebar and have a very good experience. But switching between databases fluidly remains a major problem. Opening databases in individual windows seems to be the best way to achieve database switching in a smooth manner, but that was surely not the intention with the new Navigation pane?

(As a sidenote – and I know it was not officially supported – DTPO2 had the ability to open new windows as tabs. I loved that. I could switch between multiple documents in different groups within a single database, have multiple databases open at the same time in separate tabs, etc. Sigh.).

I think it’s important to say that I am enjoying so much of DT3. The amount of care and attention that has gone into its creation is very clear, and I appreciate the efforts of all at DTech. The new Inspector pane is a superb addition, as are the countless other refinements and improvements that I am still exploring. But I am struggling to find a way to work efficiently using the new interface, which means I am struggling to get my work done.

6 Likes

Just curious but did you try Go > To Group… and to switch to the desired group that way? This is also the best workaround for 1).

Thank you, that is a very useful tip. I can’t seem to expand/contract groups using the left and right arrow keys. Is this a bug, or perhaps a feature for future implementation?!

I also see this has replaced the Groups and Tags pane in DTPO2, and that you have implemented a Move To… option instead. A very nice improvement.

And thanks also for the consistent engagement with this thread :+1:

This is a known shortcoming of the simplified keyboard handling of these popovers - the search field has always the focus, it’s not necessary to press Tab to switch to the results. Up/down arrow keys navigate the results, left/right arrow keys the search field. We might add a different shortcut to expand/collapse groups.

I see, thanks for the explanation.

I disagree on many point swith this analysis.

First off the Old Sidebar was concise and kept my top level close at hand. It didn’t’ take up much vertical space at all and that is the key point as mentioned elsewhere in this thread. yes, it takes up horizontal space but that is OK with me as I can hide it if I don’t need it. The problem with combining the old LP from the 3PV and the Sidebar is the constant scrolling and the loss of location and display when moving back and forth.

I LIKED seeing clearly the difference between databases and folders. That made logical sense to me.

You final comment on one single database would be a total and complete disaster for me. Moore’s law notwithstanding I need and want comparmentalization of my data. Some might be encrypted and some not, some might need to be on mobile devices and some not, some is too large for any current mobile device and I don’t even want it there. Some will be references that are then handled in a outside change tracker like GIT and some are not. So I want to keep the multiple database structure forever.

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IMHO, the issue is not about agree or disagree with the analysis. The issue is about what refinement can the sidebar make to achieve the same objective. Perhaps a more specific suggested change will be more more helpful for DT?

There are no such plans, we like to use multiple databases too. Some of them encrypted, some synchronized, some not.

3 Likes

I’m working on it, with screen shots. I am going in and out of DT2 and DT3 to show how the new system makes it harder to work and manipulate my data. It’s taking a while to get the shots to explain the issues and why I find myself opening up DT2 most of the time. It’s frictionless and works well. DT3 does not, at least for my use case.

OK Here is a simple example

In DTPO2 the sidebar is compact. While I’d prefer the option to move things around and change the order in which the sections appear it’s not critical because the open databases are near the top vertically and you can simply click on the name of a database to get right back to where you were. So in the first screen shot I’m in my notebook getting ready to look up something from the group where I am documenting the NSIP issues. I can easily see the databases I have available and open, the ones I might want to move to and the data in the selected database display starts at the top. I suddenly had an idea of how to fix one of my queries for getting carcass weights so I click on the LambTracker Queries database in the open databases and am immediately in screen shot 2. Notice how I am already at the location I need to be and can see the working query code and am ready to edit.

Contrast that with the same scenario in DT3.
In the first screen shot lots of the vertical real estate in the sidebar is taken up with favorites that I really only need to see UNDER my open databases. My window has to be much taller to even get to the same point in see ing stuff and I have to scroll up and down a lot. I don’t use keystrokes, my typing is terrible, so I use the mouse for all my navigation and I want it to be simple. Same thing, I get the idea for a change tot he carcass query. First I have to open the LambTracker database in the sidebar by clicking on the down arrow, then navigate to the group, then select the query and in the mean time my whole notebook database structure has scrolled off.

Multiply this by all my database interactions in a day and it’s both time consuming and frustrating. What was a simple clean interface has become harder to use.

Now things that could help:
Allow me to change what order the groups appear in in the sidebar.
Keep the last view when selecting a database or have multiple tabs with each different open database and it’s own sidebar. I can’t really handle more windows but I could deal with additional tabs.

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Disclaimer: I am just a bystander who is comfortable/ok with the workflow of DT3 sidebar.

However, it seems that for most (if not all) threads re 3PV, the most common request is looking for an effortless continuity of workflow IN a single viewer window environment. IMHO, this idea can be beneficial to many other DT3 users and not just for those users whose workflow are relying on 3PV. I wish DT would consider to include this feature (as option or standard) in the sidebar in the next version update.:pray::pray::pray::clap::clap::clap:

This is currently my biggest issue with DT3. Every time I click into a new group or Db, the document I was looking at is no longer selected (nor in the view pane) when I go back. It’s a huge setback to have to hunt for the document I was just on. Another issue related to this is when I use the back/forward arrows… it brings me to the document, but it doesn’t highlight where that document is.

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Yojimbo does this; sort of a Gmail style of tags and no folders (or groups). It doesn’t work for me, but you could dump everything into a single Db in DT3 now, if you wanted to. I prefer having the ability to separate my data at a high level, so many reasons.

Spot on!