A Proposal for the Integration of DEVONthink and ChatGPT API

That’s fine. But I know you guys are great developers and I love the product. Just hoping we can start to see some tools that would be a bit more user friendly in terms of understanding what I want and giving me a response that allows me to get going quickly.

Miro.com added a nice chat window that I can open next to my work and ask questions and it then goes through and highlights the information from my board, creates a summary, or generates a presentation with links to all my work that it used for that response. I like that.

They didn’t tell me “from our perspective, that’s not an important idea”.

But I understand where you are coming from because you know the product better than me and you know what you are capable of creating, whereas I do not.

Thank you for your response.

a bit more user friendly in terms of understanding what I want and giving me a response that allows me to get going quickly.

I’m not sure what your expectation would be here. How would DEVONthink “understand what you want” or know what you want to “get going on”. Those sound like decisions you should be making, not software.

Also, Miro is a very different thing and not an application. It’s a highly sophisticated web service. That’s very different from DEVONthink.

Nor did we. As I said, “Answering from my perspective…”, i.e, this is my response to your comment. And as previously noted, it is something we are investigating. Just “adding LLM access” doesn’t make sense. It needs to work with our application, the expectations/requirements of document management, and be as performant as possible (some of which is outside our control). These are not things to be ignored or taken lightly, especially when running a business and developing software that thousands use daily, software often used in mission-critical ways. Litigation, health care, etc. are some professional uses cases that can’t afford to receive hallucinatory responses.

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Do we have a thread where we can put use cases where the team would use them as brainstorming without commenting about what they think of the ideas and just accepting them and then sorting through them to solve them in whatever way would make sense, perhaps LLM, perhaps otherwise? When I mention “understand what you want” I am referring exactly to what the LLMs do today. They understand. They may not get the answer right, but they get you, in your language, without navigating a complex GUI with switches, they give you a text interface that can find information and make some sense of it.

I watched Robert Miles AI Safety video “AI Ruined My Year”.

One point that Robert Miles makes in that video is that we should open the discussion window as wide as necessary, which means being as inclusive as possible. So let me help you with that here:

When I see that kind of stuff where he worries about Pandemics, Nuclear War, and LLM taking over the world by deceiving the humans and getting them to do whatever it needs to escape its cage, I have to point out that

  1. We have no proof of any Nuclear Wars ever. No radiation poisoning ever. Etc. We have potential fake videos, just like fake moon landings, but nothing concrete as far as I have found.
  2. The pandemic was the same. 100% playing a terrain game just to see if anybody would take a shot that was completely unnecessary.
  3. LLMs have not done anything bad yet, so I’m not going to worry about the fear porn, just like I will not let them inject me for anything nor let them tell me I can’t grow plants right next to the hot water heater that is a nuclear power plant. And if they want to use conventional weapons to take me out and lie to everybody can call it Nuclear, go for it. I can’t stop them, so I’m not going to care.
  4. He talks about an international treaty in order to stop and slow down on development of AI, and here again, we have another example of rights being taken away from people through fear or deception or both. We already have international treaties for Antartica and nobody can even visit. The flat Earther’s have plenty of discussion about this asking why they are not being allowed to charter any travel south that would then eventually cross the south pole and cause their compasses to point north and thereby proving that we are actually on a ball, which so far, we have no proof about because we only go around a circle east west and never south to north. Obviously another treaty of this type will just further remove power from people and put it in the hands of a few people that never will let go afterwards.

Another example, I do not agree with EU’s ideas to protect me from web sites by giving me a cookie panel and the other crap they do and I can see why companies like Meta and Apple and Google and Microsoft are going to do like Rumble has done with France and simply say, No, EU, we are not going to deploy our tech there because your laws are insane.

Fear is never a place to live and LLM, Pandemics, and Nuclear causing world destruction is, from my perspective utter garbage and fear porn of no consequence except if you believe or are in power. So, I understand your point about not wanting any hallucinations for the use cases you mention, but those are smart guys and they can decide for themselves if the responses they get are correct because they will have references to their original material in their database. Hope that helps you widen the window a little, as Miles mentions is useful.

From my perspective your OCR engine is already perfect and it’s a 3rd party plugin from ABBYY, so why not do the same thing and consider using LLAMA’s “open source” models so we can see if they would be able to handle some tasks such as search inside of DT?

I like Robert Miles portrayal of Mark Zuckerberg’s system not really being open source because the training data isn’t provided, etc. but what I would like to see is a way to train that model on my own data contained in DT so that it can answer questions I get that are more sophisticated than just doing a keyword search or where I want to ask multiple questions to keep refining a search without needing to click around in a GUI.

Wow. If one is that far removed from the real world, hallucinating AI does of course not matter.

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This was just Jim’s personal opinion, rest assured that it’s neither the perspective of the company nor of the developers. See e.g. DevonThink & Apple Intelligence - #4 by eboehnisch

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Has little to do with the topic … Just an old man’s question: Apparently younger researchers want an AI to summarize texts/articles for them. Does this mean that the original text is not read at all?

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Yes and no. In philosophy of language, there are many different answers to the question “what is text?” Depending on your chosen interpretation, “AI-augmented text processing” (own phrasing) may or may not be considered an act of reading.

But I think that discussion is off the point. The reason many people specifically wish to expedite academic reading using novel tools is that academic jargon is horrendous. Academic science might indeed be moving forwards, but the state of academic literature is creeping back towards medieval scholasticism. AI reading tools, whether their usage qualifies as real reading or not, do not address problems in the way academic literature is produced.

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That is true :joy: It has a lot to do with the inflated ego of the “writers”. The less you understand a text, the more academically valuable it is … say those who actually have nothing to say. Although I won’t deny that technical terms are important because they are already defined.

However, reading the “original text” means getting the information first hand. That is the basis of any research that is supposed to have any value. Any summary, any paraphrasing might leave something out or add something that you are not aware of if you don’t know the original.

It seems to me that AI tempts you to process a lot of “material”. Because that’s what AI is good at. Quantity instead of quality. “Researchers” can then claim: "We have analyzed 100,000 articles and have come to the conclusion …
But if AI2 has only analyzed the summaries of AI1, what kind of results do you get? :thinking:

Edit: Crap in, crap out is a problem that research has always had to deal with. I don’t understand much about it, but with AI this problem seems to be exacerbated. And what is particularly sad is that we are convinced of the exact opposite.

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That’s indeed a major problem. The alternative, which is to waste one’s time fighting their way through a hostile jungle of jargons, is not desirable, either.

Tech companies like to say that their products make life better. We used to have to do undesirable things. Now, blessed with novel technology and the possibilities it provides, we have a choice between two evils, and it’s impossible to say which of the two is objectively less evil. Is this really an improvement?

The issue is not with the person making the choice. It’s the tech that has failed to deliver. Elimination of the evil/undesirable is the improvement to life we really want. This generation of AIGC, like its far less impressive predecessors, is an attempt to let you swallow a whole unpeeled lemon in one gulp without tasting it. It does not eliminate the sourness of the lemon.

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Once AI starts telling the truth, it will have to be banned.

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Unfortunately, this would mean training generations of “academics” who know nothing other than how to consult an AI.

If these “academics” leave universities to do something else, that may be fine.

But if these people dedicate themselves to research, then you don’t need to be a prophet to know what will come out.

Maybe I’m seeing it all too darkly. The idea that everything was better in the past is the illusion of the old. While the uncritical belief in the technology of tomorrow is the stupidity of the young. :slightly_smiling_face:

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It’s a great question.

Sadly of course some readers (academic and general public) do indeed just read the summary - just like for eons many researchers have only read Abstracts of articles.

But summaries can also serve a very useful purpose by notably improving the process of searching for or locating citations that are relevant to read in full.

You don’t need to be a prophet to see what will come out if scientific literature gets even more obscure over time. People (even fellow academics) will not read it, and they will ask AI instead! If this would in turn cause a degradation in the quality of scientific research, nothing but academic science itself is to blame.

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Mm, then we have the choice between plague and cholera. Which is also your conclusion, if I’ve understood you correctly.

Perhaps research needs a “Ministry for Comprehensible Language”. Texts may only be published once they have passed the test. :joy:

But what if the teachers come from the same school as their students. In other words, if neither of them can write.

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In my opinion, every single journal should have an Explain-Like-I’m-5 section (or at the very least, ELI18) which covers all terminology that have appeared more than a couple of times in their published papers. That would make everything much more accessible to the masses, as well as experts of other fields.

Unfortunately, this (and many other changes proposed by various critics) is only practically feasible if most of the reputable journals are fully open-access. The fact that journals are not open-access is, in my very personal view, an even greater problem than the problem of bad jargon.

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Indeed- immense problem

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Model collapse.

Technology Review: AI trained on AI garbage spits out AI garbage | MIT Technology Review
Nature: AI models collapse when trained on recursively generated data | Nature

The Technology Review article is paywalled. The Nature paper is more technical, but open access.

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This actually sounds like a good use for AI. They’re already doing translation, might as well translate from Scientist Jargonese to Citizen’s English (and all languages, as it would be folly to assume that any language group is immune from this slide into the jargon thicket)
A kind of GAN where one NN has to simplify the other’s jargon until it passes a comprehension and completeness test.
I am being only slightly facetious about this.

Please forgive me if I mention another topic here. And I certainly don’t want to offend anyone who does real scientific research.

But … Researchers and their research are a difficult matter.

Depending on the discipline, up to 80 % of all study results are not reproducible. On closer inspection, a significant proportion show serious methodological errors. In another part, there was simply deliberate fraud.

Researchers are also just human beings who are on the hunt for more money for their “research”. This requires brilliant results. If their research does not deliver this, then the data is altered to make it brilliant. This has less and less to do with science.

And it no longer has anything to do with DT, which is why I’m stopping now. :slight_smile:

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Reality is exactly what we are creating…