Any hope of a true cloud-based future for Devonthink?

TIme Machine can let you down when you least expect it. Your Time Machine backups can be corrupted and you haven no way of knowing until the restore fails. It is a rare Epic Fail from Apple.

Carbon Copy Cloner or Chronosync are well worth the cost as alternatives.

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Any app can fail at any time - ahh, the vagaries of computing and machinery :slight_smile:

Time Machine is still an effective tool though I will also throw my hat into the ring re: Carbon Copy Cloner. I finally bought a license six months or so ago, and while it requires a tiny bit of reading to set up for a backup, it has performed flawlessly. That includes picking up on a missed backup if the drive was unavailable at the scheduled backup time.

Ad-hoc restoration through the app isn’t as intuitive as I thought it would be but once you’ve done it one time, it’s any easy enough process.

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The difference at least in the failures I have seen is that when CCC fails, typically there is a specific file it cannot restore. However with Time Machine, it can fail and reject the entire backup.

Haven’t seen a CCC failure yet, but good to know :slight_smile:

I’ve not seen that problem since I stopped using Time Capsules a long while back. They were - um - not very reliable in my experience. Today my backup disks are connected directly to the Mac. But as you know, I don’t go for single points of failure, so I use several backup mechanisms.

If I have something to share, I put it into a cloud service (e. g. a file service) and DT is indexing it - so Iā€˜ve both, cloud based sharing and DT.

Sure, thatā€˜s a pretty simple use case - a real cloud based application is much more, e. g. providing an API to connect 3rd party Apps / Services.

My 10 year old Time Capsule is still running; alternated with an external drive
Ideally, this should be a proper NAS with RAID

Another vulnerability is being local.
Ideally, a backup should be stored in the cloud (edit: one of the backups)

so I use several backup mechanisms

likewise

Ideally one of your backups should be stored in the cloud (I assume that is what you meant; the alternative interpretation of what you wrote is ā€œthe best place for a backup to be is in the cloudā€).

Mine ran - the backups to the just constantly failed and needed to be deleted and replaced. Which part of the mix - TC, WLAN, TM - was responsible I don’t know…

I for one much appreciate the privacy-first approach of DevonThink. I pay for DTTG. I know I’ll never have to fear a data-breach. I know I’ll never have to worry about a service being down.

There are lots of cloud-based solutions that exist, and I happily use Bear or just plain Apple Notes as well right now, but DT3 offers something nothing else does, and I do hope they continue to do so.

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People anticipating a glorious cloud-based future have clearly never tried to accomplish real work with a flaky internet connection. Our (fiber) connection succumbed to a cable cut a few months ago; I was very happy I wasn’t trying to access my 4 GB database via my phone’s data plan.

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Agreed and I imagine that was a dreadful chore!

We have often mentioned The Myth of Network Persistence. I am in a relatively metro area but I can drive less than 10 minutes and be in a place without good connectivity.

Just a followup on mitigating the risk of a Time Machine failure
I recently installed Arq Premium backups for offsite (cloud) storage
Arq also supports local storage; giving me local redundancy for Time Machine
I also use two external drives (to be replaced by a proper NAS RAID)

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Backing up with Time machine, CCC etc. shouldn’t be a reason for a cloud solution, but wouldn’t it be more interesting to think about multi user needs? I’m working mostly with Devonthink instead of Evernote, since a long time, as it is document oriented, allowing deeper folder structures and a way better search. But not wanting to maintain a server machine and the price tag of Devonthink Server is forcing me to keep some areas of my documents in Evernote, just for sharing doc areas with some people.

As we see from comments here Devontech business model like it is seems running fine, so I fear nothing will change, although there would be countless potential users, which are not happy with solutions like Evernote.

It seems to me that you get what you pay for. That is, the additional cost and complexity of Devonthink Server is justified by the more robust solution it offers.

It’s your data and your money, of course, but ā€œI want functionality that I’m not willing to pay forā€ is not exactly a strong business case for your proposal.

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For sharing documents, I use GDrive or Dropbox; there’s integration with Devonthink

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This also depends on what kind of sharing is needed. You can share a file from DEVONthink or DEVONthink To Go via chat, email, AirDrop, etc.

Dropbox, etc. are not always required. :slight_smile:

Thanks for the thoughts of Arq. I know about it.

To be honest, I don’t even want to think about the backup.
Just like I don’t want to worry about version control (i.e. Google Docs just saves versions and I don’t have to think twice to save it in Git or some version system).
Nor do I want to worry about the version of the app that opens the data file.

I don’t want to worry about the disk space on my computer.
I don’t want to buy hardware that has to be recycled and landfilled.

Basically I want to own nothing and be happy. That’s the plan, right?
Joking aside, the information is mine, but the storage has just been a nightmare, hasn’t it?

I mean we have gone from punch cards to cassette tapes to diskettes of various types to hard drives to usb drives to CD drives to SSD drives to cloud storage.

Backing up the entire computer isn’t very interesting and software versions change.
I much prefer how Google has done things. The google docs and sheets I created 15 years ago are still working and the space they are using isn’t a problem.

I recently made a backup of my 2TB Google Drive and stored it on a 50TB Degoo drive.
To do so, I needed to use their takeout.google.com service and download 50GB files. 34 of them in total. Then I had to encrypt them because nothing Google has is encrypted because they didn’t design their system like NotesNook has done and I don’t trust Degoo any more than Google, so I encrypted each 2TB file and pushed each of them to Degoo.

It’s not really fun dealing with media nor needing to download from one cloud to a local machine.

https://notesnook.com/#features has built the encryption into the tool.
Another company that has done this is Descript.com.
They let you download a client and the videos you process are backed up, encrypted to the cloud. If you want to store them locally also, you can do so, but you can also leave them on the cloud and if your computer blows up, you just login on a new computer and download what you were working on again. Simple and painless and the backup is to the second of your last keystroke on your transcript.

I was thinking perhaps DT can go this direction by providing the cloud storage as a paid service on top of GCP or AWS or Azure or whatever… And as I add to my database, the DT client just encrypts everything and sends it to the cloud service as a backup.

Yes, I can go get Arq or CCC and I can set up a copy system and do the juggling act of moving everything around but all I want is a knowledge management system that I don’t have to think about even if it outlives me by 500 years. I want that data to just keep getting passed down the family tree with a simple subscription service that manages things like Google Drive, but with the security of NotesNook where everything is encrypted.

Does that help? Am I being unintelligent by asking for a subscription to storage/encryption?

Not sure. I figure as a human race, we need to save this data anyhow and if it’s more efficient to do it on a large scale rather than each person buying disks or whatever new technology we develop, wouldn’t it make sense to just look at things from the perspective that we will always need a backup system, so build it into the products so they will last longer than our current PC hardware will ever manage?

No (that’s the only bit of you post I can answer outright :see_no_evil:).

What you describe wouldn’t be for me - there are things I cannot by law put in the cloud (not quite true, but the preconditions are such that, for an individual, they cannot be fulfilled). A single backup of my data would be woefully insufficient. Per se, sync is not backup - it lacks the versioning which backup offers. So if my last keystroke before my computer explodes is the delete key, and the one before was unfortunately select all, then an empty document is what will be in my sync store. As regards NotesNook, this suggests to me that for that app too, syncs rather than backing up.

I’m also going to assume that DEVONtech won’t be around in 500 years. Although I will happily admit that my WORM media and SSDs probably won’t work then either. So I don’t think either of us a have solution for time.

Anyway, I don’t think we will see DEVONtech implement a cloud service any time soon. As I suggested further up I assume the resources required to implement such a system would be too much for the team as it stands; whether or not expanding the team to implement a cloud service would be financially viable is - of course - something I have no data on. But I’ll wager a bet: if it were non-disruptive and financially viable with a manageable risk, I’d guess it would already have happened.

I’m not quite sure that holds water; one could maybe argue that the more the software interacts with external factors outside the control of the software developer, the more its demise could be hastened? And to be totally silly, if a relevant number of people play music whilst working with DT, should DT include the ability to stream music?

I actually don’t think your idea is silly - I think there is a whole range of people wanting different things from the software. If the software could do everything perfectly, that’d be great. But assuming the development of features is a rate-limiting factor, experience suggests to me that it might be better to concentrate on core competencies.

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Music analogy is bogus… if customers of software are seeing fails because of, supposedly, factors external and out of software developer control, then perhaps the software developer should address the problem and solve it internally. DT is a decade behind in simple hands off backup option and also sync options. I would certainly pay extra/premium if they had built in sync option that did not require fiddling with various options and blaming the external party [dropbox, iCloud, etc etc…] when sync did not work smoothly and seamlessly. To paraphrase Apple from long ago , it should just work. stop blaming other parties and come up with a solution. Yes indeed development of features is rate-limiting , but core competencies of DT are pretty darn good, sync is not. Many other softwares have superb sync and/or back ups built in. I am not a software developer, but am an extensive software user for 50 years. No one knows the guts of DT better than the developers of DT. Why they either don’t modify it so it works more smoothly with dropbox, iCloud, etc or add their own sync option, I certainly don’t know. And this is just talking about Mac sync.

Erm… if the failure is because of external factors outside the software developer’s control, how does the software developer solve it internally?

(Just saying…) :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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