DT4 - “Read the Manual”

DEVONthink
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I keep seeing thread after thread being replied to with some form of “read the AI portion of the guide”. I personally am a mobile first person. I have a kid I’m taking care of all day so I don’t have a lot of time to sit at my computer to read through the guide. I do have ideas and questions about the AI in DT4 though, and working them out throughout my day is helpful so I can jump right in when I do get back to my computer.

Unless I’m missing something, the guide is available in-app on the desktop. Is it also available somewhere on the web? There’s a reason people keep asking AI questions here. Locking the explanations away where web / mobile users can’t see it means these questions will keep flooding in. It’s an important document and I’m sure it’s well written. Please either upload it somewhere accessible or sticky a thread with the AI portion. Read the Manual is only helpful when people can easily get to the manual.

If it is available outside of the app, then please toss over a link. I’d be more than happy to be wrong here.

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Thank you! Would anyone object to me copy-pasting the relevant sections in here?

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Clarify what you’re referring to or provide an example.

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the manual has a great table of contents, why not looking there what is interesting for you and just read it in the manual? I have not really understood, why you do not want to read it directly in the manual, as it is available also online…

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IMO, the reason for the same questions being asked over and over again is mostly that people do not read the manual. Or simply refuse to and feel insulted if told to RTFineM.
In any case, no one stops you from downloading the manual as PDF or ePub and read it on whatever device you want. Or even print it out.

Yes, I would. IMO, there’s no point in cutting/pasting stuff from a handbook that every DT user has access to anyway. And deciding what is “relevant” in that context might cause even more questions being asked.

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It seems to me that the OP was actually asking if the manual was available separately online, not that they were trying not to read the manual - they wanted the manual. It isn’t obvious that it is available online (it is under downloads > handbooks, not manuals). And then I think all they were wanting to do was post here the material from the handbook/manual about AI. Which, apparently, isn’t OK.

It is true that if that material, or, indeed, a link to the “Handbooks and Extras” webpage, were posted here in the forum, in a sticky at the top, it might help folks to find it.

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I haven’t had any clarification or seen an example to see what is specifically being suggested.

PS: @chrillek isn’t an employee at DEVONtech and everyone can have their views. I do work for DEVONtech. :slight_smile:

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Well, they referenced several times that they were interested in the AI stuff, so those sections seem likely. But would you be opposed to someone quoting from the manual/handbook here in these threads? I can see how it could be helpful - to maybe keep the same questions from being asked over and over again. Put a sticky with the AI sections at the top of the forum, asking folks to please read this before asking an AI related question. It is just a thought - and I think thats all gsmumbo was wanting - easy access to the AI specific stuff.

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I was not referring to the OP when I wrote that there are people who refuse to read the manual. These remarks were made in other threads.

And I also tried to make clear that I would not cherish the manual here. As @BLUEFROG said: personal opinion. Not DEVONtechnology’s.

Posting text elsewhere that people don’t read at its source, hoping that they’ll read it there… I don’t believe in that. The issue is not a lack of information, but a lack of effort to digest it. Again: just my opinion.

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As I said, I don’t know what they’re specifically wanting to do. Copying and pasting when asking for clarification is already a commonly done thing, in general. But I don’t have any information to go from.

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@tamara6 is correct. Every time the “read the manual” comments come up, it’s directing them to read the Getting Started / AI Explained sections. For example, in the stickied post:

Take time to review the Help. At a minimum, the Getting Started section. And if you’re looking for AI information, read the AI Explained section there.

So in this case, I’m asking if I could paste the AI Explained section. I just noticed that there’s another topic open right now also asking if the AI Explained section could be posted somewhere on the website.

For some additional context, I personally have ADHD, so the more barriers there are to entry, the less likely my brain will connect with the task. So if there’s a sticky or even just a comment or a post with the AI Explained content, that’s accessible and I’m likely to immediately read it. As it is now though, you end up finding a topic, getting to the “read the manual” comment, going to the downloads page (assuming you know this is where it’s at), downloading the file, opening it in an entirely separate app (context switching), then searching to find the section. All that can be shortened to “read the AI Explained content in this stickied post (link)”. Simple, easy to get to, in the same context that you’re aleady in (the DT discourse), etc.

Also of note, when it comes to searchability and resources for future DT users, having a bunch of AI threads with good questions that all end in “read the manual” just ends up creating clutter. If that section was easily available on the discourse here, it’s a lot more likely that people will read it before posting, leading to better questions that have better actual answers / solutions that can be referenced by people in the future.

When you have to tell one or two people to read the manual, that’s a user problem. When every other thread you click on has a “read the manual” comment, that’s an accessibility / documentation issue. I’ll be honest, it’s a bit frustrating to see because it’s hard to tell if this comes down to simply not realizing that people aren’t finding the content, being passive aggressive due to annoyance at people not reading the manual, some kind of principled stance on not providing relevant information in support threads beyond a general reference to a manual, or something else. And repeatedly saying in this thread (and others) that you don’t know what we’re trying to do, you don’t understand the question being asked, etc. when a user (tamara6) was able to not only understand my question but to perfectly articulate it twice now, it comes off as gaslighting. Or at the very least intentionally trying not to have to address the questions.

I’m a bit sad here, as I am so excited about DT4. I have my DT3 license and will be happily upgrading it to a 1 year license for DT4. But the way support or even community relations is being handled here is souring a lot of that excitement. It’s not enough to make me not upgrade because the software is amazing, but it definitely makes me think twice before coming to this community for help.

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I don’t know if this will help, but one trick I picked up on this forum is to download the PDF manual into one of you DT databases and then add it to favourites. It gives you DTs search, highlighting and annotation power to find things and make notes. The manual is pretty comprehensive. I do understand that a ‘wiki’ version of the manual online might be useful.

Providing you sync the database, you can read it in DTTG too :smiling_face_with_sunglasses:

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Version 4 includes also a new help viewer which supports searching (using DEVONthink’s search syntax including operators & wildcards), easy navigation and chat (in the Pro/Server editions). And this help viewer fixes also all the shortcomings of the Tips.app, e.g. not working links for hidden preferences, caching issues after updating etc.

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This is exactly what I’ve been thinking.

For those trying to help, it isn’t about reading the manual, or being able to search the manual. It is about ease of finding the manual in the first place, so that you can read it, so that you don’t ask a question that results in RTFM. Because all the questions that end with RTFM clutter the forum, and all the RTFM answers are pretty unfriendly and off-putting.

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Where to find the manual has been explained quite regularly here, and the “Help” menu is not that difficult to see, either. I find it weird when people insist others have to answer the same questions over and over again, but they can’t even click on “Help” in the menu bar and enter a search string there.

RTFineM tells people where to find the relevant information in the first place. If they don’t get an answer there, they will receive all the help they need here. But what is wrong about pointing people to the relevant source of information? Why would you expect others to repeat here over and over again what is written there already?

I agree that it might make life easier for people who don’t want to read the manual. But are there many regulars here who burn to read the manual to those who don’t want to do that themselves?

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I’m just checking - did you read gsmumbo’s answer above? Because it pretty much answers your post right here.

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No, this would not be appropriate at this time. Remember, this is a beta, including the documentation. While many people have complimented that section as providing an honest and realistic view of the AI integration, I may be revising it over the course of the beta. So anything posted here would be out of sync with the actual documentation.

By the way, the suggestion to read that section is about (1) familiarizing the unfamiliar and (2) managing the expectations of those who are using AI in other contexts. So the first response to a question like “Why can’t I put this file in this group when I chat it?!?” points directly back to that section, and also the following section AI in Practice.

This is the concluding subsection in that section…

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What they suggest leads to the manual being posted in chunks all over the place. Because why should this approach be limited to AI? I do not see the advantage of chopping the text in bites and hoping that those will be read anymore than the original.

My impression is that some people don’t want to search the forum for what is there nor the help. And that’s not going to change by simply putting the information elsewhere, where it must be searched for and found, too. You can only have so many sticky posts until they start to scroll out of sight.

Mind you: I’m not speaking for the DT people. If they feel enticed to follow up on the proposal, so be it.

But it’s simply wrong imo to accuse this community of not being helpful because people get pointed to the manual. You’re of course free to give detailed advice instead pointing to the dreaded RTFM.

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Look, it’s fine. You go right ahead telling people to RTFM. I find it rude, but you don’t, and that’s fine. This OP was just asking where the FM was, so that they could read it. It may be that more people don’t RTFM because they have a hard time finding it (yes - you can get to it from Help, but what if you haven’t downloaded DT4, yet, and you have questions and you’d like to RTFM, but you can’t via Help?). That’s what this thread was about - could a link or a sticky be made to the danged FM? So that maybe more people would read it? Your argument seems to be that it wouldn’t help - that people just won’t RTFM - and so there shouldn’t be multiple paths to it.

I’m a teacher. I get asked the same questions over and over. Even when the answers are right there in the book/notes/whatever. The fastest way to stop people from asking is to tell them to look it up in the book. Because, sure, a lot of the time it is in the book. But when it isn’t, these folks are now conditioned to believe that it must be there and they missed it, and they don’t want to ask because they will be made to feel stupid when they are told, again, to look in the book. Or they did see it in the book, but they didn’t understand it. But if they ask, and you say “its in the book” then they feel stupid, and are less likely to ask again in the future. So I do get that it isn’t fun to answer the same questions over and over. And if it is really obvious that it is in the book then I usually show them where it is and then give a bit of an explanation for whatever it is (because maybe they are confused). And sometimes it is just easier to explain something again, even though it is in the book, because hearing something a different way can make a difference to them.

Anyway, you do what you want. Go ahead and keep telling people to RTFM. Just realize that some people might not find it to be the friendly advice that you think it is.

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